Episode 128: Letting People In with Dave Smurthwaite

Meagan – hey? Everyone! Welcome to today’s episode of Beyond the shadow of doubt. I am Megan Skidmore. and I’m so grateful that you took time out of your schedule today to take a listen. especially today I’m thrilled and feel privileged to have someone who I’ve been following on Instagram, on Social for quite a while, and I’m really grateful that to have Dave Smurthwaite. I hope I said that correct on it.

David – Yes.

Meagan – The podcast today. So welcome.

David – Thank you, Megan. I really appreciate you having me.

Meagan – Yeah,

I feel like the lucky one. So

this is our first time getting to meet. That’s one of the best parts about this podcast is, I get to meet such a variety of people and get to chat with them and get to no, and sometimes the intricate details of their lives.

David – Hi guys.

Meagan – But mostly I love hearing about faith journeys. You know I’m a parent of a queer child, and my faith journey took quite a pivot few years back. And so my my heart is in this place of I call it an an expansion, a faith expansion and I have learned that. And I continue to learn that there’s just no 2 faith stories a lot.

David – About that.

Meagan – They’re all different. And I’m just. I want to normalize that. I want to normalize that. Your path is your path. Mine is mine. There might be some similarities, and that’s great. We can connect on those and I want to learn from what’s different about yours and cause I know that will enrich my life and those who listen. So with that I wanna give you as much time as possible to share. I I wanna invite you to start with your origin story. Tell us you know you were raised. Your faith of origin. I don’t like to always assume you know. Maybe your family of origin, your story, you know your profession. all the things that make you. you.

David – Oh, well. alright! I’ll try and like I’ll try and grab fruit as I see them hanging on the tree here.

Meagan – Wrong answers. There’s no.

David – Of course, of course. Yeah. So I I’m one of 4 boys. I was raised by loving parents. I was adopted when from birth, so I immediately was adopted and adopted into the church. So when people talking about growing up, when people talked about being adopted into the house of Israel. I was like, well, I’m like literally adopted.

Meagan – Sure.

David – Yeah. Was born in Oregon and lived in California when I was a kid and moved to Utah when around Junior high age. So spent junior high in high school in Utah. served in Lds mission in Milan, Italy and ran into my wife. At that time. I know who she was. I was just one of many gray suits there been multiple occasions since that time where she was like, oh, yeah, we were together in such, in such a place. And I was like, no, I was actually that was never at that place. That was somebody else that you’re thinking. that’s not me. Some other elder.

Meagan – I mean. Wait. She was a missionary as well. Is that what you mean?

David – Missionary as well, yeah.

Meagan – Oh, she was a missionary as well. Oh, Gotcha. I thought you said you just bumped into her.

David – Yeah.

Meagan – Or something.

David – Ye. That would have been fun, too. We we were never served in the same area. But there was one Zone conference that we shared together. and I remember her getting up to share her testimony. And just having this utterly random not romantic thought of any in any way that you know what whoever marries Cyril Olson. Her name was Olson at the time. And they’ll be a lucky guy like she just seems like she has got it together, and she has a fantastic testimony, and had no idea that after the mission we would run into each other at a concert to the P. Briar concert. whom I love, and Pete and I have had the opportunity to to do a fireside together for lift and love.

Meagan – No fender.

David – And yeah, we I ran into each other. We started dating. We broke up a bunch of times part of the reason cause we weren’t comfortable with the idea that we had served the same mission together, and after about a year we got engaged. And I’ve had. We have 4 amazing boys. The oldest 2 are leaving on missions this summer. And we’ve lived all around the world. So we have spent as a family. We spent 5 years living in France. We’ve lived in Spain. We lived in Rwanda. We’ve lived in Vietnam. We’ve lived in Peru so we have the opportunity to live in a lot of different places and have a lot of different experiences. And I think that’s been, you know, speaking to the word expansive. Think that we’ve had a lot of expansive experiences as a family, as it pertains to geography, as it pertains to faith, as it pertains to gender. So I love the word expansive as well, and I I assign it to a lot of experiences that I’ve had in my life, and that I think our family has had in our life, as well.

Meagan – Awesome. I look forward to hearing more about your version of expansive but first of all, wow! I’m so jealous of all the places that you have lived.

David – We

Meagan – And sure.

David – It really was. yeah, it. It has been a fantastic journey, and largely just out of desire. We wanted to give our children the the gift of living abroad something that we’ve been able to do as missionaries. And Marissa had experience living abroad in different study programs. So we just wanted our children to have that have the gift of language. They’re all bilingual, at least.

Meagan – Wow.

David – Our second oldest speaks Spanish and French, and then it’s going to serve in Brazil. So are we speaking Portuguese.

Meagan – Oh, my goodness, lucky kid! Oh, wow! I speak Spanish, and I can understand some French, and of course, Portuguese. There’s a little bit of crossover. But wow! I’d love to be just anyway, this isn’t about me and my travel dreams. But so you are pretty much a lifelong member of the church.

David – One member.

Meagan – Christ of the Latter Day Saints.

David – Yes, absolutely.

Meagan – I did. I love your.

David – Yes.

Meagan – But you there? So one of the reasons that I found you as a parent of a queer child is you also identify? I don’t want to speak for you actually.

David – Hmm.

Meagan – I know that. Let’s just say you identify outside of the binary box.

David – I do. And actually, the term that I’m most most comfortable with one that I came in contact with probably a couple of years ago now is gender, expansive.

Meagan – Okay.

David – So you know there’s that there’s our word again.

Meagan – There you go. Would you mind taking a minute and sharing with our listeners what that means to you?

David – Hmm! Well, When I was 1112 ish years old. I had experiences that were outside of the gender binary that I had grown up with.

Meagan – Okay.

David – Given. This is 19. This is (199) 019-9091.

Meagan – Okay.

David – So not nearly the same context or environment that we have today when it comes to.

Meagan – No.

David – Yeah.

Meagan – So. Not at all.

David – A non-binary landscape or a gender. Queer landscape. And I felt conflict, serious conflict over that and went to my bishop and confess some of the feelings and thoughts that I was having. and my bishop was a beautiful human being. He was a grandfather figure to me, so he was not of my parents generation, but he was of my parents. Generation.

Meagan – Okay.

David – And again, speaking to the context of 1990 91. He, his best suggestion at that time as a leader, was that this probably isn’t something that should be entertained. and so I internalized that and lumped it into.

Meagan – He said. you should entertain what’s going on for you.

David – Could not.

Meagan – Should not. Okay. I’m sorry I didn’t hear that.

David – Yeah. yeah. Should not, should not be entertained. So I associated that with a lot of other things that were in the you know, that were in the for strength of youth at the time. These were this were these were immoral thoughts, and but that they made me immoral. and not something that I should. You know they made me sinful. Okay? And I lived with that story for a very, very long time multiple decades. And it wasn’t until you know the cycles of repression. Finally. you know, they finally came off the wheels. and I was blessed, forced to re-examine those thoughts and feelings with a really a wealth of gospel experience. Now, As a foundation. that the idea of gender queerness or or non fluidity even came into my knowledge base. These were not areas that I was familiar with. Transgender was not something that I had associated with myself as a term or as a label. I just tried to stay as far away from it as possible. and so out of the gate transgender felt the most relevant for me. And what I have found in the gender space is that there are a lot of different terms, and labels and individuals use, and they’re like trained on a great outfit like you try on different outfits. And then something fits, and it maybe fits forever, and maybe fits for a season. and transgender was the only outfit that I had at the onset of a more expansive journey. And so that’s what I used for for a minute. But it didn’t quite feel comfortable. And so, when a friend mentioned to me a couple of years ago that they had seen a sign. I think it was at the University of Utah, one of the health clinics. They had seen a sign and one of the terms that the that the you had used your view had used was gender expansive that immediately felt like the right outfit for me. and because my story isn’t one of choosing one gender over another, it’s not a belief in choosing one norm or one expectation over another normal expectation. And it’s very much trying to capture everything that I have felt in what I previously would identify as the gender realm. But really I just more and more. I think of it as an identity journey. And we’re all we’re all trying to figure out. I our identities. And we all have different components to that. And expansive is my best way of capturing and gender expansive is my best way of capturing the fact that I’m just trying to capture all of the best attributes that we assign to gender. We have masculine attributes, we have feminine attributes, we have masculine ways of doing things. We have feminine ways of doing things, and save your mixed and mashed all of those. Yes, it totally, I think, moving.

Meagan – Yeah, no, they’re assigned. They’re often assigned.

David – To.

Meagan – This is what somebody who is more masculine does. This is what someone who is more feminine does. And sometimes we put ourselves in that box of only those who identify in this way should or can, you know, be or do fill in the blank. Sorry. Yes, you’re you’re getting me all excited about this. it’s so important. it’s so so important. Because if there’s one thing this journey has taught me is to I see hearts. I see soul.

David – Close. I love that.

Meagan – Now versus you know in a past version of me, was more likely to see how you know hair, style, or hair, color. length, piercings or no piercings wearing jewelry or not. What kind of jewelry or not? You know the the clothing, whether that’s a dress or no, or pants or suits, or casual or right, a lot of external queues, really. And I it really was a lesson for me in how much we are socialized to make judgment calls from external queues. and not a whole lot from. you know, seeking out the more internal qualities which takes a little bit more proximity. and that’s takes a little bit more finesse care.

David – Int intentionality. Yeah.

Meagan – Intentionality. Yeah. So I love how like, I don’t publish the videos of this.

But if if you were if you were to see what I see right now. I noticed you have your nails polished, and I love that. I’m actually quite jealous of the color. I’ve never seen a Minty. not really lime. It’s really a light mink green, and I love.

David – Now.

Meagan – Were embar-.

David – Andy blue.

Meagan – Oh! Is that what it is that.

David – Ish, ish, yeah.

Meagan – With computer like the colored. But but the point is is, it’s why, you know who says that that was, you know, reserved, for I was having a conversation like this with my kiddo the other day, and I’m like aside from rock Stars, who seem to have been able to get away with a lot of things, you know, talking about David Bowie in the eighties, or or boy George.

David – Oh, yeah.

Meagan – Like. For some reason it was maybe more acceptable for them to do. The hair, the hair color, the the earrings, the makeup, all of those things. Now, we’re just embarking in a different period of time, where more and more folks are leaning into their authenticity. They’re leaning into their inner inner wisdom, their inner voice. And just like I’m gonna do what I I wanna do. yeah, or what I what feels aligned.

David – Yeah. And for me. And again, I’m only speaking to my experience and do not in any way, shape or form, want to minimize anyone else’s experience or journey with gender and with faith. I have many friends in the space that have fully transitioned or partially transitioned. From one from one gender, from one sex to another. because it’s what feels what feels aligned for them with their with their divinity, and I recall non member, that I was able to get to know a little bit better who was investigating the church earlier on this year. and she said something beautiful to me. She said it, you know, at a very early age She started praying to become the daughter of God that she always knew that she was, and that’s that that struck such a chord with me of we’re just. We’re intended to be who were intended to be, and going to the source. going to that divine source again and again and again.

Meagan – Hmm.

David – Will always point us in the right direction, and will most often take us away from clear paths that have been established by society. Now they will take us off of that path. And when I was. you know. when I started this journey at 11 or 12 years old, and then I kind of buried everything. And then it came back to light. 20, nearly 30 years later I was still working with that 11 or 12 year old mindset. And so a lot of the things that I’ve associated with expression up until recent months. Excuse me was masculine expression or feminine expression, and there are times and periods where perhaps, I’m expressing in ways that people would classify as more feminine. or I’m classifying in ways that are more masculine in terms of the clothes that I wear, the makeup that I do, or don’t wear the hairstyles that I do or don’t have and what I have acknowledged, or what I have felt more recently is that I’m not expressing to be masculine or feminine.

Meagan – Hmm.

David – I love some of the areas that people would classify as feminine and expression because of the creativity associated with it because of the inclusivity that comes when I’m sharing that space with other individuals. You know there are attributes. There are opportunities that come from different forms of expression that are much more divine and much deeper than just trying to look. Yeah, trained to pass as mask of the North.

Meagan – In a certain color, because it’s so associated with. or tends to be associated more with, one gender over another. That’s really profound. That’s really, that’s magnificent. and it’s so interesting. I you said something choosing to express yourself outside of how society has defined. I think it’s something that unless we kind of do our homework. We forget, I mean, think about, for instance, names that have been assigned by parents to babies over the years they have evolved. In which name sounds quote unquote. Granted, it’s going to be in the perception of it’s going to be unique to every individual. How it quote sounds but names that maybe once we’re seen only as feminine or or masculine, were saved for that gender or not. And and one thing we do like to travel as a family, and I remember learning The name. Michelle is a very, very commonly used name in America. and I bet most do not know that technically. that’s a male name in French. It’s Michael. It’s Michael, right? And just things like that. How it’s it can be so arbitrary and a bit ambiguous. even colors. You know, hospitals will release babies in a certain blanket color sometimes, or at least maybe they more so used to, and there was once upon a time it was swapped. Girls were put in blue and ways. We’re putting pink. Yeah.

David – Yes.

Meagan – I think, in the early twentieth century. Yeah, it’s.

David – Up until probably the fifties or sixties.

Meagan – It’s very. It’s so re, it’s just what’s the word I’m looking for? It’s totally it just depends on the era you’re talking about the influences and just so many factors, so many things. so I want to back up a little bit. You shared how the effect these thoughts, these feelings that you had in your youth very young hat on you that you felt. I think you said some shame around it. That it felt like it defined you as an immoral person because of the for so for those that are not of the Mormon or Lds faith. Dave referred to the for strength of youth, which is a guideline like a booklet that comes from leaders at the very top of our church on How youth so generally teenagers what is considered amiable and amenable behavior and actions, and and that, too, has changed over the years. What was in there at the timeframe that you’re talking about is no longer there now. So that’s what Dave was referring to. Would you mind sharing a little bit more than you know. One of the things that I just want to normalize is that having questions and allowing doubts is just a very normal, healthy. expected part of a faith journey. I mean. you’ve been in this faith your entire life, as if I end. You’ve probably heard that that saying, you know, to doubt your doubts, and that a person, you know, we shouldn’t doubt or be doubting Thomas that kind of a thing, and I really am trying to change that perception. The more I have found that I’ve leaned into my doubts. It’s it’s been a catalyst for growth. It has pushed me to my next deeper level of understanding of the divine and and my own self. So yeah, I would love if you could speak to that a little bit. How you have navigated those questions. How you did navigate them, and probably I don’t know, maybe still do. And the doubts.

David – Yes, absolutely. It is a It’s an ongoing journey I love the example of Christ, who we believe obtained a perfect wisdom and we don’t know at what point in its ministry he obtained that perfect wisdom. but love! How often the Savior asks questions! During his ministry and displayed absolute curiosity and whether there was intention or not, intention, whether it was trying to lead individuals into an answer. he simply asked questions and.

Meagan – Very fascinating, that’s true.

David – I love that idea of asking questions. I I think that gives us permission to ask questions, especially ask ourselves questions with the same intention as Christ, and that was to align either himself or the individual with whom he was communing. To align them with divinity, to with a Father in heaven. And for me coming out of these cycles of shame and guilt Cycles of repression first coming out. It was so rocky. so rocky, because something that I had tried to suppress, and that I had tried to ignore for so long because I felt it was contrary to God’s will. To finally acknowledge that it wasn’t going away. It was something that had to be addressed. Put me in a space right out of the gate, I mean the day after personally allowing got into my experience, or personally coming out as. We use sometimes is the term.

Meagan – Yeah.

David – I remember going to God and asking like the gap was too wide. It was too much of a connection. I could not make the connection between who I felt that I tried to be.

Meagan – Thing.

David – Ever since I was 11 or 12 years old. and who I was facing or accepting, or trying to accept in that moment. and the response that I got from God at that time was that it didn’t. It didn’t matter the way that I thought it mattered, and how I interpret that is, that I had all of these ideas of what being a good member. Was like what the attributes were, what the actions were, what the thoughts were, etc. And here I was forced to confront fonts feelings, potential actions that did not fit that definition that I had adopted, and that I had lived by for years and years. I’d had the opportunity to serve in many different capacities, including bishop bricks and bishops, and And so I knew all the definitions. I knew the Handbook, and I just could not connect those dots, and forgot to be able to step in in that moment and really kind of try and clear the clutter away and say, listen. The things that you think matter in this moment. They don’t matter the way that you think that they do. and.

Meagan – Bow.

David – Setting the expectation that I would find the things that that truly did matter along the way, and that there was a path forward that was a path of greater wisdom, of greater understanding of an increase in price like that price like attributes. I’m saying all this with the luxury of looking backwards. Now at the time it seemed as though my world was ending.

Meagan – Yes, I’m.

David – Think, like.

Meagan – Certain that was the case.

David – Yeah. my world was ending. My family’s world was ending the only stories that I read at that time. Again. This is, you know this is 7 or 8 years ago, at this point was a lot of broken homes, a lot of broken hearts, a lot of broken faith.

There was not. There were not a lot of encouraging stories. As I first waded into this online, especially within the context of a Conservative faith like the Lds Church.

Meagan – Yeah.

David – So I’m grateful I’m grateful for I’m grateful that I asked the question, even though it was in a moment of crisis. and that the response given was one of it’s okay. It’s going to be okay. And you’re going to discover why it’s okay. As we continue to move forward together.

Meagan – So I find myself curious. Thank you for sharing all of that. By the way. I do. 100% get you are now sharing this with more. 2020 vision, or close to it. Hindsight is tends to be that way. But can you share with us a little bit. You know you mentioned you came out to God, you know. That’s I look forward to the day that we no longer really have to use that phraseology.

David – Yeah.

Meagan – But for the purposes of our conversation to date. you mentioned that you had kind of shared your identity with God, how you were feeling genuinely inside. When or did you, you know, when were you able to then share that side of you, that part of you. with your other. with your communities like your faith community, your family? others significant others, you know in your life. What was that like? I think sometimes those are the hardest spaces to navigate this those who mean the most we want their love and their acceptance. Of course God means oh, you know. is very significant in your life. But it’s just different.

David – Is.

Meagan – To family.

David – There’s something about the tangible like. Then, like.

Meagan – Yeah.

David – Proximity. I think.

Meagan – So.

David – Yeah, that makes it scary. And I I love the term. I forget when I heard it, but I love the term of the phrase, letting people in versus coming out.

Meagan – I love.

David – And.

Meagan – That I do be. I feel like it. It is a it’s a different dynamic that exists. And so for a long time I had tried to shut God out of this portion of my life. I had shut Marissa out of this portion. I had never. I had never talked to Marissa, my spouse about this no one. I hadn’t spoke to anyone aside from my bishop when I was 11 or 12 years old, so I kept. I kept everyone out of this part of me. and so what I view this journey as that has taken place over the last 5 plus years is one of letting people in, and different waves in different stages. And I first had to let myself in to the experience to the journey and the next person that I spoke to really sincerely was Marissa. It was within hours that I first asked the question and started investigating and feeling really overwhelmed. It wasn’t long after that I took Marissa by the hand, and we went upstairs for our bedroom, and I had this conversation with her, and neither of us knew what any of it meant at the time. I mean looking back. I I’m astounded that I even had the capacity, the gumption to to just like throw us both into the experience without without any context, without any it. It felt like the right thing to do. I’m glad that it happened the way that it happened. It has been a rocky, transformative experience for us and for my children. That normalizes over time. At first there’s this big waves that are happening. And you know, when you’re in the low lows, the world’s going to end in the high highs. You think, okay, this is totally with this can happen. This can be normal, this, can. We can make this work. And then you’re Logan, and then you’re high.

Meagan – Cool.

David – And those waves start to get smoother and smoother, as you all continue to converge towards a more divine understanding. So Marissa was the first person that I spoke to, which really precipitated that exchange with God, because I felt so fragile at the moment. I feared rejection because of these thoughts and feelings I feared rejection from Marissa, from boys, from my parents, from whomever I’d kept it in for so long, because I knew the story in my mind was that I would be rejected. I’d be rejected by everyone that I knew. and so I allowed Marissa in on the experience I allowed God in the on the experience, and it was probably a year plus I mean. Our children were fairly fairly young at the time.

Meagan – Math.

David – Our youngest was probably 6 or 7. Our oldest was early teens. so not knowing what we didn’t know at the time I held off. I held off, just to give ourselves more time to. and give myself more time to explore, to understand, ask questions before I went to them with this really messy.

Meagan – Yeah.

David – Messy, life, journey.

Meagan – Yeah. I can only imagine what that was like 5 plus years ago, when you took your spouse by the hand and and shared something so intimate, so personal. And I heard you when you shared you feared projection, and that’s with someone who you have an established, you know, connection and relationship with you know. I just feel so much for those that are in our congregations, our families, our spaces. where they don’t necessarily have that deep connection, and yet they want to belong. They want to be a part of group. It’s such a deep human longing and to also feel that fear of what’s going to happen. Once that information is made known becomes available to others. Yeah, you know, because just like you said. You don’t judge anybody who you have. Some friends who have opted it felt more aligned for them, with their divine identity, to transition more fully, you know, toward one gender or another. I think the same is true of our faith journeys that what feels comfortable and safe for one is not necessarily going to feel aligned or safe for another, and you know I would. I look forward to a day where there’s an abundance of safe spaces for our our queer loved ones. And you know, that starts with the individual, and and I know that those listening to your story hopefully their hearts will feel pricked, and and ideas of things that they can do you know, will come to their minds and into their hearts. If you could talk to your 1112 year old self and help them, you know. Just offer any advice. What would that be? Knowing? You know your older experienced adult, Dave what words of comfort or advice would you offer.

David – Well, I think that I would first and foremost let that younger version of myself know how how perfect they were in their in their current form. and in their thinking, and how how perfectly loved they are!

Meagan – Some right.

David – Now. God loves us so much. and the Savior loves us so much. and nothing that we do no way in which we identify. in what we choose to wear, or how we express changes that perfect love that exists in that relationship. And I would hope to just be able to express that as as fully as possible, to instill a sense of absolute acceptance and courage. And perhaps you know, with a scary journey that would be ahead of them. I, the Scripture from the Beatitudes. The last verse, I think it is that Christ shares of blessed are the persecuted for my namesake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. I don’t know how I would convey this really well to the 11 or 12 year old version of myself. But what I have come to acknowledge in my own experience is there’s been different degrees of understanding that have come with that Scripture over the past couple of years, and initially. you know, I was raised as a white cisgender male in the church, which basically plus early leadership opportunities. Like, if you wanna look at the privilege like triangle like.

Meagan – Right.

David – I’ve been pretty close to the top for years and years. and enjoyed that privilege. and to move from that space to a space of being a member minority.

Meagan – Yeah.

David – And fearing exclusion or feeling exclusion. Feeling persecution in some way, shape or form. Is deeply formative. Sorry, I thought. I turned up everyone.

Meagan – No worries. you know I’m really struck as you are sharing that stark contrast between what you experience for the majority of your life in terms of what you called privilege and you chose to share your story right? This is something that I remember when I when I. It just hit me like a ton of bricks like no person is like just choosing to identify this way, you know. Why would somebody purposely choose to insert themself into a group that they know is marginalized and has less privilege, and has more likelihood of being ostracized or you know, like you said, not feeling that belonging not being treat it as such any any longer in a different way.

David – I think it really what I have asked that question often as well, Megan, and the answer that that I’ve come to so far that will change over time is something that you alluded to at the beginning of our interview together, and that is the we’re all intended to be. I believe. Personally. we’re all intended to be peculiar people. And within the context of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We’ve used that word peculiar as a grouping of individuals at times. But I believe that it happens on a very individual level as well.

Meagan – I’m up.

David – And mentioned. and in order to become peculiar. you have to make decisions that are consistently in line with the divine. and God’s thoughts are not our thoughts, neither his ways, our ways. And so the more that you’re in that lane of divinity. the more likely that you are to verge away from the majority. Be that within the faith context be that within a gender context be that within whatever identity context that

that has been established by mankind. you will gravitate away from it. because God has a path for us that we cannot understand unless we’re continually seeking that feeling or that resonance. And what I have recognized is that initially, I thought, oh, well. persecution is such a valuable facilitator for development of Christ like attributes. And so. even though the hardness that’s associated with that. I had this the season of gratitude for persecution as a standalone tool to draw me closer to Christ.

And then, as I thought about it more, I thought, well, it’s actually all of the decisions, all of those decisions that I’m trying to make, that bring me in harmony with the divine that bring me in harmony with God that caused me to diverge from the norm. It’s all of those decisions that inevitably cause persecution to take place because I’ve now diverged from the norm, and I have a majority group, and the natural instinct. The natural consequence in our lives is that the majority will persecute the minority. And so the beauty of all of those choices that I’m making prior to being persecuted, that leads me to a space of persecution also testify of a divine experience, of a divine desire to seek harmony with God.

And it’s made me extremely when persecution comes, when exclusion comes, when even when those fears of those things come. there was a part of me that gives thanks as a sign that I’m simply trying to live a divine experience. And if the world fails to understand or align. With how I’m living. Then I’m not alone in that journey, and that Christ is the perfect example of one who every day woke up and lived outside of the norm, and expectations of of his geography, of his religion, of his time and place.

Meagan – It’s true.

David – So so I’m I’m I’m deeply grateful for persecution. And do I wish that it existed? I wish that we were able to all, live in the perfect harmony that we hope will exist one day. but for the time being I have a greater understanding and appreciation of Christ’s words, Blessed are the persecuted for my namesake. Because we’re all intended to walk that path in some way, shape or form. It’s not unique to any category of individuals. It will happen to us all if we’re actively seeking a divine path.

Meagan – Wow! That’s some great insight. I appreciate you sharing your take with us. That’s a lot of food for thought. Hmm! cab. pull 1 one question that I love to ask to kind of wrap it up for all of my guests is. you know, I purposely picked the name of this [odcast it’s a phrase that we here, especially if you’ve grown up in your faith community to give testimony or to bear witness of things. And so I purposely dropped the A because I I think I’ve learned. I don’t know. I just. I have learned. I I know a lot a lot less than I used to think I knew, and a lot of the things that I used to think I knew. I just don’t. I just don’t know you know, at least to the extent that I used to, anyway. So my question is, what does it mean to you to live beyond the shadow of doubt?

David – That’s interesting, Megan. The the first thought that comes to my mind, and perhaps it it was prompted by what you just shared was that when I was a bishop I was amazed. I was startled to have individuals coming into my office and confessing because they had doubts. They didn’t. They didn’t know the way that they thought other people knew that the Book of Mormon was true. Scripture. Or that Joseph Joseph Smith was called as a prophet of the Restoration, or that whatever aspects of their faith that they were hearing, that other people knew. The shadow of doubt. They could not stay the same, and so they felt a need to come and confess.

Meagan – Interesting. Hmm.

David – And I would as lovingly as possible express a formal welcome to the club like. Thank you. You might think that other individuals don’t don’t have doubt but it’s actually like it’s actually impossible like, that’s the whole purpose, the whole intention of us to be here. And so when I hear the phrase today the shadow of doubt. I think about living in the shadows. And when I think about my own face journey, when I think about my own identity journey.

There were times and seasons, there are times and seasons. This is not past nor present, neither past nor present. where I choose to live in the shadows I choose to hide, I choose to shrink. I choose to interact with doubt in a way as though there’s shame, and there’s guilt associated with that. And so I think of that as being in the shadows of doubt.

Meagan – Wow!

David – Versus what has happened in my own life and my own experience with my identity journey. of only being able to live in that shadow for so long, only being able to reside in that darkness for so long.

Meagan – Yeah.

David – And finally stepping into the light. Of doubt the light of not knowing the light of being able to say. God, this doesn’t make sense to me. Can you please help me connect some dots here. And at times having those dots connected when I asked for them, but most of the time receiving the acknowledgment of you know what it’s great that you have these questions. It’s fantastic. You’re gonna figure them out. We’re gonna figure them out together as we move forward.

Meagan – That’s great!

David – There is a lightness associated with that acceptance and that acknowledgment that brings me peace. That brings me stability. And so I it’s it’s a play on words, but.

Meagan – Totally is yes.

David – But living without a shadow of doubt. For me that is living within the lightness of doubt. That is. I love it. Yeah.

Meagan – Double meaning. I love the double meaning. It’s a lightness as far as like your burden is lifted. but it’s also a lightness of, you know, enlightenment and insight. And I love how you said it’s you know your your thoughts were. It’s we’re gonna figure this out together. Those are great questions, and I really think God is not surprised when we have these questions.

David – Thinking of like darkness and lightness as well. When I’m in a shadow space. I’m really fascinated by this. Now. when I’m in a shadow space. I only, and I’m in a shrinking space. I really only perceive myself and my stories like, there’s this like, I’m to the point that I’m even excluding God often, and I’m just living within my own thoughts, my own fears. And when I’m back in a light space I’m able to see everyone around me. I’m able to see God and everyone else, and that is a Christ-like space in that. It’s a space of connection. It’s a space of inclusivity. It’s a space where we recognize that the things that I’m dealing with they might be my own unique flavor of things. But there is a commonality to my experience. And then the person next to me is experience, that all unite us. And and an acknowledgement of both the uniqueness of our journey, but also the universality of our journey.

Meagan – Yeah.

David – And the lightness gives exposure to that, it gives exposure to the fact that we are all connected. We, we all are recipients of a divine inheritance of divine love. Divine inclusion. So, yeah. thanks for asking the question. I I.

Meagan – Absolutely. I love that our journeys. There’s uniqueness to them, but there’s also universality to them that’s great. I really love that. This has been such a fantastic conversation. I’ve I’ve really learned a lot from you, and and I know our listeners will as well. and I just wanna thank you again for being willing to be open and vulnerable and authentic about your experience. I truly believe the more that we talk about these things that destigmatizes them. It just normalizes them. It helps kind of dissolve the stories that we have currently about this experience, and I love love, love your advice that you would give to younger David that you were. are continue to be perfectly made, and I think that is the greatest message for any of us that universality and that uniqueness, those are both they, you know, they don’t cancel one another out right? We can hold one in each hand, and that’s That’s one of the beautiful parts of this journey.

Thank you. I like to for our guests to get to know. My! I’m sorry our our listeners to get know my guests a little bit better. So I have a few for fun questions, and I’m just looking for one word, answers.

David – One or 2.

Meagan – Answers, okay? What’s your favorite book?

David – Favorite book. Oh, my goodness!

Meagan – A favorite book. It doesn’t have to be.

David – Favorite book. Yeah, I’m like, Oh, man, what have I read recently? That

Meagan – It really.

David – favorite book. What happened to you

Meagan – Okay.

David – By Oprah and doctor, that I’m not remembering right now.

Meagan – Sweet. I love that. If you think of it, tell us, if not now. Yeah. Those listening have their homework.

David – Yes, we.

Meagan – Would you? Would you consider yourself an introvert or an extrovert.

David – Who I’m kind of a sneaky extrovert.

Meagan – Okay, sneaky extrovert. I love it. And who’s your favorite artist?

David – Hmm! Van Go comes to mind.

Meagan -Okay. And are you a night owl or a morning lark?

David – Oh, I’m a morning lark.

Meagan – Hey? Are you? That’s great. Wish I was. Do you have celebrity? Crush.

David – Celebrity, crash.

Meagan – Hmm.

David – Let’s see, here I have. I’ve always been. I’ve always had crushes on

leading older ladies, so like the golden girls are like. but it.

Meagan – Awesome. Those are some good ones. They just don’t. They just don’t make them like they used to those sitcoms.

David – Life banner. Julie Dench, like you. Yeah.

Meagan – Yes, love them. And do you do still, or carbonated water? Or do you like diet?

David – Found it carbonated. There’s no other water. There’s only carbonated water.

Meagan – That doesn’t surprise me if you’ve lived abroad for as many years, that’s generally what you drink. And then, finally, the furthest place you traveled. I don’t know what you’re gonna.

David – Oh, man! The.

Meagan – Probably been around the entire world. The entire globe.

David – The furthest place that I’ve traveled in terms of feeling was definitely Rwanda. Rwanda was the biggest stretch.

Meagan – Awesome. Did you get there, or was it.

David – Yeah. We lived there for 3 months. We lived there for 3 months.

Meagan – Okay, wow! Well, if folks had questions for you, or wanted to reach out to you in some way, connect with you, what would be the easiest way for them to do that.

David – Probably my Instagram. David Smithwaite, writer writer would be the easiest way to reach out to me.

Meagan – All one word, yes.

David – Yeah, David Smith, underscore writer, I’m pretty sure.

Meagan – I’ll leave that. I’ll leave that in the show notes. It has been a pleasure. Thank you so much.

David – Megan. Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for great questions. And yeah, I’m gonna be thinking about shadows and light.

Meagan – Did.

David – Days to come.

Meagan – But that’s awesome. I love it. Thank you so much.

David – Okay, have a great day.