Episode 127: Lions can’t survive without their pride with Ben Schilaty

Hey, everyone welcome to the beyond the shadow of doubt. Podcast. I am so grateful that you took time out of your schedule today to join me and my guest. I have Ben Saladi here with me today. I said it right.

Ben – You did. Schalvi is perfect

Meagan – Okay. You may know, Ben, this is not his first rodeo being interviewed on a podcast you’ve been on many, many podcasts. But I am grateful that you took time out of your busy schedule. And you’re here with us today. So welcome.

Ben – Of course. No, I’m honored to be here. And I just love attention. So being on a podcast is always fun for me.

Meagan – That is true, Ben. You do love attention. I think your dad does, too. I got to interview your dad last fall, and wow! I noticed similarities like father, like son.

Ben – Meet my dad, and they’re like, Oh, I understand you now.

Meagan – In a in a good way, in a loving and fun way. Good way. Well, let’s just jump right in. I always like to give my guest as much time as possible to share whatever’s on their heart. To get us started, though, Ben, can you share with our listeners.

Just your origin story you know about you, your upbringing, your family where you grew up. Maybe. we most know your faith of origin. But I actually, I know my podcast reaches persons of all faith backgrounds. And so that’s something. I like to include your education, your interest. Whatever do you feel is pertinent for us to know about you. I mean, it’s all pertinent because you like attention so, but if you can narrow it down to your first 50 things. We’ll go with that.

Ben – Perfect. I will condense 40 years of life into just into just 30 s. So I’ll be. I’ll be. I’ll be brief I was raised in the Seattle area. I’m the youngest of 4 kids, and I definitely have youngest child syndrome. You know I that hence the loving attention joke that is a tongue in cheek joke, because it’s true. And my parents raised our family in the in the church of Jesus Christ of Irish saint, so I’m still an active larity. Saint.

When I was 19 I spent 2 years in Mexico as a missionary, and I learned Spanish there, which led to a 10 year career as a Spanish as a Spanish teacher, and I taught Spanish at the Middle School high school college levels, and that also led to my first 3 degrees, which were in

Latin American studies, Spanish linguistics, and second language acquisition and teaching. That’s my Phd, and then, after that I went back to school and got a masters in social work. So now I work full time as a therapist.

I came out publicly as gay when I was 30 so about 10 years ago, and before that I’d come out to close friends and family starting about the time when I was 23, and that really was such a good thing. My experience being a a gay member of the Church of Jesus Christ. Lawyer Saint says, really shape my life in a lot of ways

and continues to. So I right now I work as a therapist. I work primarily with Lgbtq clients and their families here in Utah. And starting in August, I’ll be working full time at Utah Valley University, just down the road, so I’ll be a a a professor of social work and doing that full time, and I’ll still do some therapy on the side. So. And that’s just a little about me. I also love all things, Disney, both music, movies and theme parks, and I love cacti a lot, and my favorite food is the cinnabon, so I love cinnabon.

Meagan – The cinnabon. Not just any cinnamon role. These.

Ben – Okay, here’s the thing. Cinninals are delicious. I love them, but some cinnamols are too dry. The best part of cinnabon is like how oui, and gui it is. I love a good gui cinnabon.

Meagan – Yeah, I I I’m with you on that one. Yeah, I know exactly what you’re talking about. Okay, you weren’t kidding about the 30 s. That was fast. So some who are listening may know some things we may repeat if if they’ve heard you and others. But I’m just gonna pretend like those who are listening. They’re just getting to know Ben the first time. So

you’re you were raised in the Lds. Faith, the Church of Jesus Christ. Already. Saints, you are openly and openly gay, member and active. You served a mission. That’s what the 2 years in Mexico served an Lds mission and you came out 10 years ago. Sometimes I forget that, Ben. It seems like not as I don’t know.

Ben – Seem long or short to you.

Meagan – I think I thought it was longer ago. But you know Covid has just really messed up my sense of time like things that happened in 2020 feel like a decade ago.

Ben – Well, you know, there’s interesting thing.

Meagan – But for you I don’t know. Sorry.

Ben – Yeah, there’s an interesting thing that happens in this, like Lgbtq, Larry, Saint Space, where people like often get really active in it for a few years, and then they then they move on and do something else. And so since I’ve been actively doing this stuff for 10 years, I I I’ve been around longer than most. It feels like. So I haven’t gotten burned out yet. I still love it.

Meagan – Good and I’m still. I don’t know if I’d consider myself relatively new new ish. I’ve I’ve been in this space for 5 years now. But more actively probably more like 3 like in a in a more public way, I guess. So. Yeah, 10 years. So one of the things that I have set out to do with this podcast Ben is, I want to normalize.

Ben – Here.

Meagan – That all faith journeys unique, and that having questions and allowing doubts, is part of that journey. It’s a healthy part of that journey, and it doesn’t mean that anything has gone wrong. It just means that you’re human on this earth having an experience. And so, while you are sharing what yours has been up to this point in your life.

someone else in a similar who may have similar I don’t know. We’ll just call it background demographics or experiences, or whatever could be in a very different place at this point. And that’s okay, too. Right? But I’d like to.

One thing I have learned with my guests is sometimes we go back a ways to really pivotal moments, moments where? You just arrive at this point where you’re kind of face to face, and there is no way around or over or under. You’ve got to go through whatever whatever is, is right there in front of you.

I do interview a lot of parents of queer kiddos and individuals who identify as queer. So a lot of times. It’s that not always, not always. Sometimes it’s it. It can be a lot of different things. So I won’t fill in the blanks. It’s it’s it’s a lot of different things. But

I’m curious to know, like. when you think about your faith journey growing up and kind of what you what you were experiencing, what you thought yours would be. And then, now you’re here, and you have, you know, hindsight is 2020, you know. When? When do you remember? Kind of really feeling. Oh, my gosh! I don’t know if that’s how I I don’t know about that thing or that concept, or that we could say doctrine or policy, or whatever you know, because all tenants, all conservative faiths, have various tenants, various doctrines, policies whatever and those that who are raised and grow up in these face.

They all come to this point right? So can you share with us a little bit about when you remember and experience along those lines, and kind of what that was like for you, and what you did.

Ben – Yeah. So you know, I I was a a teen in the nineties, and early 2 thousands and and back then, like even in society at large. It wasn’t considered acceptable to be gay, like. I remember when when Ellen came out on her on her sitcom it got cancelled, so it was just like I just grew up in a very different world than the world that the the kiddos have these like today. And so in my mind. It like being gay, was not acceptable. It was not okay. And my attraction to men when I was a teenager was just a phase that would go away.

And I really thought that you know, by serving a mission, you know, giving 2 years of my life to God that I would like he would like, bless me with what I would have called healing.

And so when I came home from my mission, and that hadn’t happened. That’s when things when I started like, actually think about things, because before I was able to just live in a state of denial. And so at first I started out of the in this place of like. Okay, I did something wrong that made me gay. So then I can fix it. And then I like went through my life with the guy. I can’t really think of what I did to like make this happen. So that was like, Okay, well, still, this could be fixed, and I’m just like good enough. I’m faithful enough, if I like. Put enough good deeds into a heavenly bank, then God will fix me.

and I’ve been home for a mission for 2 years, and that still hadn’t happened, and I thought, I am doing all the best things like I am trying my darnedest to be perfect, and nothing is changing. And so then I started to wonder like, Well, well, why is this happening like I couldn’t live in denial anymore. I was like, well, what’s the purpose of this? Like God’s giving me this trial? What is the purpose of this trial?

What is he asking me to sacrifice. What does he ask me to give up? And and it got to a point where I just like I couldn’t do it on my own anymore. I was just I was just struggling so much I just couldn’t. I just couldn’t keep in the secret anymore.

And I I came out to 2 of my best friends while we were on a walk when I was 23. And and you know that that’s a moment that I’ve now told thousands of people about, you know I wrote about it in my book. You know. I’m talking about it now. And that evening when we, when we, when we went on that walk. None of us had any idea that was gonna happen like we didn’t know that a moment was about to happen. That was, gonna change my life. It’d be so pivotal and influential that I would tell thousands of people about it.

But they were prepared for because they loved me. And so the the the big shift that I had that night was.

I can tell people what’s going on in my life, and they still love me and care about me.

and that wasn’t something I I knew could happen, and that that was a big shift. I really thought if people knew about this, they would reject me. They would not wanna walk me around.

So that was the first big shift. The the the second big shift that I had was when I was 29, and I fell in love with my best friend, who was also a gay member of the church, and I thought I was. Gonna have, you know, a quote unquote, normal life, you know, in in in the Church of Jesus Christ of Larry Saints.

marriage between a man. A woman is a core tenant, it is, you know, taught is one of the whole reasons. We even come to earth. And so it’s just it’s such a big emphasis in church teaching since I thought, well, of course, I’m gonna do that thing like that. Gonna marry a woman that that’s what life is all about.

And it became clear that wasn’t gonna happen. And you know, I’d had a few girlfriends, and it was always awkward, even though I, you know, loved them, and they’re wonderful people. And then I fell in love with this best friend of mine, who was also a gay member of the church, and things felt so different. I was like this like, this is what all those songs were about. This is why people kiss each other. The airport. I was like suddenly, like love and romance made sense. But before it hadn’t made any sense to me.

and then I started to wonder, well, is this wrong, like what is is being in this relationship with this man? Wrong? What all the all the things that I was taught about same sex relationships, are they wrong? And so I had to go through this, this big process of just kinda like pulling apart all the things I thought about relationships and marriage, and then, like, hold them in front of me and looking at them. and I remember a moment where, like I had told one of the one of the girls I dated that that I loved her, and now I was with his boy, and I told him that I loved him, and I I just like remember feeling that so intensely and like feeling that was good and not a bad thing or something to run away from.

Meagan – That all of these feelings that you are having for this this friend, that they were okay.

Ben – Yeah, and and that was such a big shift. And I remember,

Meagan – Early.

Ben – I remember after we kissed, and the the first time and everything, and I know what it feels like to do something wrong like I know what it feels like to sin. I know how I feel when I lie or when I’m rude, or when I’m unkind, like. I know I know what that feels like, and that didn’t feel wrong to me and that was a new reality I had to reckon with as well like. Well, if I was told this was wrong, but it doesn’t feel wrong, and I know what sitting feels like. Then what do I do with that? And that that was a really big pivot moment for me. That happened 10 years ago.

Meagan – So if I can just pause you right there for a minute. I want to hear everything else you have to say. But. Ben, that is so huge. I just want that to settle in for our listeners like you said. I know what it feels like to do something wrong. You know when you have. we could say, trespass against your own morals, your own code of of who you want to be, how Ben Shilati wants to show up right and in accordance with your relationship with the divine. You know what that feels like, you know that feeling of I don’t know. Discomfort. Feeling bad or sad, or however, that feels like to you remorseful, maybe and get when you kissed Jordan right.

Ben – Yep.

Meagan – I don’t know if you said his name. Yeah.

Ben – Say his name. His name is Jordan.

Meagan – You’re both.

Ben – What’s yeah.

Meagan – I read your book, which I’m going to leave a link in the show notes for You didn’t feel that I think this is something that’s so important for folks who identify, and they don’t even realize it because they don’t have to admit this to themselves or anybody, for folks who are attracted in, I guess, for lack of better term. what society considers a more traditional way, which is male and female. what we know and understand to be male and female. although my perception of gender has definitely evolved they don’t even have to think about that because that’s just how it’s it’s not seen as I hate even saying this word, but deviant or bad, or wrong, or like something, is terribly off with with them for feeling romantic love feelings. and maybe even of a sexual nature for somebody who is they’re opposite sex. They don’t ever. They don’t feel that.

Ben – Yeah. yeah. And and you know, I like, if someone had told me when I was 25, like, Ben here’s a man, it’s not a sin. you know that that would have that wouldn’t have been helpful to me. This was something that I need to experience on my own.

Meagan – Have thought they were crazy.

Ben – Of course. Yeah.

Meagan – Yeah.

Ben – Yeah. And so, you know, I just, you know, want to give. Give space for people to like, like be on their own journey in their own time. You know it was. It was. It was the right time for me to come out publicly when I was 30, and so I wouldn’t want to rush anyone to do anything that they’re not ready for. And so and yet so I just trust that people have their own timelines and and their own learning and growing experiences, as well.

Meagan – I think that’s really important to mention. This episode will air or excuse me, publish during  June and sometimes people feel this pressure during June. When I say people I mean those individuals who identify as queer in some way. LGBT. QIA plus. And I. What you just said is really important. It’s your timeline and nobody else’s. It’s important to no your level of safety. Create your safety. However, you need to do that, and you get to choose. When and with whom you share this very personal part of yourself.

Ben – Yep, precisely.

Meagan – So, okay, so you’ve mentioned your mission, and that didn’t. I’m saying this tongue in cheek that didn’t cure you.

Ben – Yeah.

Meagan – And you 2 years after your mission, even, you’re like, okay, this is definitely still here. Fast forward. You came out at 23. Then you met this friend who became more than a friend. and that was, weren’t you around 2829, ish.

Ben – That. That’s when I was 29 and 30

Meagan – Okay, 2930. And you were. And the and somewhere in all of this is where you started to shift in your understanding and perception of being gay identifying in a different way than a lot of people, and and for sure identifying differently than what was perceived as okay or acceptable.

Ben – Here.

Meagan – And frankly, like not bad, you know. anyway. So so then, what was next like? Cause you have continued to evolve? Obviously our. That’s one thing about our fake journeys. There’s no point of arrival, right? It’s just ongoing. I like to give myself permission. You know what I I’m learning this. Today I feel this today. Tomorrow I might learn something new, and I might feel a little bit differently or understand things a little bit differently. I don’t like to back myself in a corner.

Ben – Yeah.

yeah, you know, the the next thing that happened was when. So I was trying to like move forward like in my faith, tradition in the church, and and Jordan was trying to leave. He’s trying to take me with him on on his way out, and the the tension like we. We didn’t have the same goals even though we both really loved each other. And so we split up, not because we weren’t compatible, or because we didn’t love each other, but because I wanted to stay in my faith, and he was ready to

not not being the faith anymore. And and that was really painful. And so I. So we we ended things. And about 2 months later I told them I’d change my mind that I was gonna pick him over the church and he very kindly told me that he knew that I would choose the church over him again in the future, and that we couldn’t be in a relationship.

And so I was devastated like absolutely devastated. And at the time I was doing my Phd. Program in Arizona and my my job had just ended as well. And so and I I wasn’t enjoying my Phd. Program. And so here I was. I’d broken up with this boy I loved. I didn’t like this career path I’d chosen, and I had no job, and just like everything in my life, had fallen apart like everything like I was. I was in the depths of despair, and I thought, this church is stupid.

It just took away from me the thing I love the most.

Meagan – Thank you for just being honest. I know you don’t really really think that. But at the time you were you had a lot of pain.

Ben – Yeah, I was like, I lost the person I love because of this of this church.

And I I was very upset. And so I just wanted to not be true, and I went to a bunch of anti Mormon websites and I I think some people use the term anti more a little loosely, I would say. These were like definitely like anti Mormon, like meant to like tear the church down. And I was like great. This is all made up. This is just not true. It was easy, Peasy, and then I thought, you know what

I should maybe like. Check in a little bit first, and like read some of the like Scriptures that that you know came through Joseph Smith and I and I and I read some. I was like. Darn it.

this like really resonates with me, and I like feel this is true. And and so, you know, I spent a lot of time praying and reading and pondering, and I just felt so sure, like like like this very unexpected feeling of Ben. You were being called to move forward within the within this church, and to live your life within within the teachings of the Church. And that was not what I wanted. But that’s where my my studying and praying and pondering, and really asking for, to define guidance led me.

and and that that led to a huge shift in me of you know this is this is where I feel called to be. This is what I will be. These are the truths I hold on to. And I started being able to say, you know there are. There are a few things I know, like things that feel like absolute truth to me, and there are a lot of things that I believe.

And f cause before I was a very rigid believer like either it’s all true or it’s not true. And this this gave me the space of okay. This is what I do. This is what I do know. And these are things that believe, and that the believe list was a lot longer than the no list but.

Meagan – Do you ever feel comfortable saying there are things I don’t know, like I used to think I did.

Ben – Oh! Totally!

Meagan – Yeah.

Ben – I think that’s just part of learning and growing. Because living in a world where there is certainty is so comfortable like that is like, like, you know, right from wrong, you know all the answer like that is a comfortable world. But then, to say, I don’t know what the next life is gonna look like that can feel scary. But also I’ve been alive long enough to know there’s like to trust and have hope and faith, and not know what the outcome is going to be, but to know that God will guide me along.

Meagan – So you went through a huge wrestle when you went back to Jordan? And he said, No, I know you’ll eventually go back and and it seemed like things were falling apart. And so you went and did some of your own research, and then, like you shared, eventually came to the conclusion you needed to stay. But compare and contrast that to. We kind of you kind of went through this little 2 month period really quickly when you had told Jordan the first time. No, I need to stay, and I you know I honor your path, or whatever. But you said, 2 months later you went back and you said, Okay, I want to be with you What was that? 2 months like like, that’s huge. Ben.

Ben – Yeah. Well, to be fair, it probably would have been shorter than 2 months had I not been in Peru, so I had a a summer job. I had a summer job in Peru and Jordan. I ended things like that like 2 nights after I got to Peru like over like over Skype. And so I I I love the country of Peru, but I don’t think about it fondly, because it was the worst. It was the worst 2 months of my life.

Meagan – First time of your life. Yeah.

Ben – Cause. I was devastated. I was. I was managing. I was working for a nonprofit. I was managing a group of volunteers. None of them knew I was gay. I couldn’t talk to them about what was going on. It was just like this, this, like I was. I was dying on the inside and couldn’t tell anyone about it.

and it was just so painful. And also, you know, we lived in a small apartment. There were like 12 of us in the small apartment, so I didn’t have any privacy, so I couldn’t call someone to talk to them either. So it was just really.

Meagan – We had limited Wi-fi too.

Ben – Yeah. And like, I didn’t have a cell phone to call home.

Meagan – Yeah.

Ben – You know it was just it I I’ve lived away from my for my parents, most of my adult life. This was the one time my life I was homesick like I just like needed my parents.

Meagan – That makes that makes my heart just. Oh, I just poor Ben in Peru!

Ben – And honestly, it was awful, and I I remember, like one weekend. A few of the volunteers I like went to this place called the. It’s almost the Switzerland of Peru. And we like like this beautiful, picturesque place like we’re like hiking through the mountains and eating delicious foods and taking these like the most amazing pictures. And and 1 one of the the volunteers said, We are living people’s dreams right now, like we’re having such an adventure. And I just like felt empty on the inside like we’re doing this like, like, I’m on this adventure. And it’s just like I just wanted to get out of there.

And I actually ended up leaving a month and a half early. I was supposed to be there the whole summer, and I left early July. Cause I was just. I just I was falling apart and and the truth is, I got I got fired cause I’m like such a duty bound person like like the my bosses could tell I was depressed. I was like, no, I agreed to come. I’m gonna push through, and they said, Well, if you need to go home, you can’t, I said, No, I’m gonna push through. And then they finally said, We’re firing you. You’re going home.

Meagan – You were in the depths. That’s tough, that is tough.

Ben – There’s we awful! And then when I, when I got back to the Us and saw Jordan, and then, when he said, like I was still in the depths of despair you know, and and then, when when he said, Hey, we’re not getting back together, wasn’t like, I felt better, I felt even worse somehow.

Meagan – Home.

Ben – And, like my I I drove to my parents house after that, and my parents of 13 h from Jordan’s house, and, my goodness, what a terrible 13 h in the car by myself! Just I just I just like felt so empty.

Meagan – So was it was it that time period in Peru that it was. I know you were sad because you were going through that. and maybe your faith was further way, way, way in the back of your mind at that point, I mean. was it just your heavy heart missing him and realizing how much you cared and felt toward him, you think.

Ben – Yeah, I mean, it was, of course, like like heartbreak. And I remember thinking, oh, like this is why they call it heartbreak, like it actually hurts on the inside. Cause. I I’ve been.

By a few women before, and I was always sad, but it wasn’t like heartbreak, so like oh, this is why they call it heartbreak. So it was. It was not like missing him in the loneliness, but also like this existential dread of like.

Meagan – Oh!

Ben – Life supposed to be like, I’d be alive for a lot longer, like what is even the purpose of life like? Why, like, why am I here on this earth? How can I ever be happy? And it’s honestly like so weird to like? Look back on that time because my like, I feel so differently now, like I like. I am not in that place even a little bit. but it was a real place of just like feeling like dread like I would wake up in the morning and just feel dread like I was like, I don’t want to go through today.I would just rather today didn’t exist.

Meagan – I appreciate your honesty and candidly sharing this part of your journey with us, because thank goodness, you are in a different place, but I know that there are listeners, or maybe who who identify or are questioning, or maybe thinking about it or or maybe parents of kids right? And this is just. It’s so helpful to try to understand what’s going on like you saying existential dread. Oh, my gosh! I felt that that’s heavy.

Ben – Yeah, yeah. And it was tough.

Meagan – Questioning your person, your your meaning of life.

Ben – And and and the hard thing is like that to me. It was like the church was the problem like it was the thing that was making me stab and like. If I throw that away, then like

is Godre, and it’s like, it’s like getting rid of this thing that’s causing me. Pain like that wouldn’t then like solve the problem. It like would create a new.

a new set of problems. And so I I was wrestling with heartbreak, you know, trying to figure out what the meaning of life was. You know what my faith was.

and you know I mentioned. You know, things I know, and things I believe. The one thing I like never really doubted, even though, like I would ask myself this question, was, I never doubted the reality of God. Like I I just

I I feel like I I connect with God easily. I I can feel God’s presence pretty readily, and and feel God’s love. And so that was something that that I I never I never questions. I was. I was like God, is there? There was some point to this but what the heck is going on, and you know those moments of just like crying out in prayer like God, where are you like

like like if you care about me like, why aren’t you fixing this like this is something that’s fixable? Why, why is life just going to be filled with so much sadness all the time.

Meagan – And what did you feel? Was your answer from God? Or maybe you’re still waiting.

Ben – You know, I remember so so I got fired like I said, and there was another person there who was like managing the group of volunteers, and she she was Peruvian, and we always talked in Spanish, and I let her know what was going on, so that she could, so that I would at least have someone to talk to, and she was so kind and so wonderful about it. So when I got fired and I had to leave

which was also the best thing that could have happened that summer. There was a song we would always sing a Julia de Venega song, and your listeners probably won’t know what but it it it’s it’s called like I’m I’m leaving like I’m I don’t want to go, but I’m on my way out, and it’s like this fun song. And so on my day I was in like we’d like to start singing this song because we’d always sung it. But like now, I was actually leaving.

and I remember like crying and hugging her, and like we always talked in Spanish

but I I remember telling her like as I was gonna said I said in English, I said, I love you. Thank you so much. I needed you because I just need to like cause I I’m very good at Spanish, but, like my native language is English, I wanna like, say, the words that like meant like came from from me

and and I just like felt like her presence. There wasn’t a mistake.

and that God made sure I was with someone that would be there for me during this really tough time.

And so a lot of the answer has been, as I’m like, where are you? It has been. Oh, I’m here, in your friends, in your, in your parents, in your coworkers, in your siblings, and I’ve seen God’s love through those people all along.

Meagan – Really beautiful.

Ben – Hmm! And and then you know what. When I got home, I I spent some time with my parents after Jordan. I like ended, ended ended. And you know, I I I would like, pray and like feel God’s love, and didn’t fix things. But I would be. I’d feel like, okay. I have enough energy to get through today and I remember, just like I had to go back to Arizona to go back to school.

I didn’t have a job and my job before it paid my tuition. So now I didn’t have a job. And I was gonna have to pay tuition. So normally did. I have no income, but I have to pay all this money, and on my drive home I thought I I prayed a bunch. I said, God, I’m in a mess.

and I trust that you will take care of this like I need a job. And I just, I’m gonna trust that you’re gonna make this happen. And then I got back to Arizona and I. I went to a friend’s wedding in in in one of the temples there, and I and I, where we’re walking into and say, God, I’m doing my best, like I’m living a worthy life.

Please fix this. And I got I walked out of the Temple, and I had a voicemail from someone at the University of Arizona, where I was going to school, and with with a job offer, and suddenly I had an income, and my and and my tuition was paid for.

and I was like and cause I I just feel like God comes through for me, and not like I wish he had come through like months before, so I’d have to worry about it for so long. But he came through when I needed it. And so there’s just this. There’s this trust that I had then that I have now like. Even things are hard. I trust that God will come through.

Meagan – And I think not that I I’m dismissing, you know the difficulty of it. But I mean, I’m sure there was lots of growth you experienced between the time that you needed the job. And then you actually found out that you gotten it, and same thing with the tuition. that’s that’s great. Thank you for sharing that. So if we can kind of fast forward a little bit. you know, you talked about growing up in the nineties. Nobody talked about this. It wasn’t okay to. you know, to say you were gay, or it was way less accepted. I guess you have swung like 1 80. You are very much you know. Well, you’re an advocate, you know. You’re advocating for yourself, but also for the Lgbtq plus community at large. In many ways like you are very active in that space. you know. I have grown up in the Lds church, and I remember a time, Ben, when even that wouldn’t wouldn’t have been okay or would have been frowned upon. And maybe it still is. In some, you know communities in some groups. I think that’s changing little by little. But tell us a little bit more about that part of your journey. I mean you. You were getting your advanced degrees, but you also wrote a book. You were keeping a blog before that, and then you eventually were a Tedx speaker, and each one of those it’s almost like you got a little bit more, a little bit more in the public eye each time.

and and then eventually, you started a podcast with Charlie Bird. So I mean. yeah, you, you are out there advocating your little heart out and so tell us what, how, how did that happen? And and why? And I mean, that’s you’re you’re right up. You’re right there.

Ben – Yeah, you know, like, when when I when I look back on the last 10 years, it’s easier to like see this like easy roadmap of like how it all happened like, Oh, clearly this is how it happened. And people often ask like Ben, how do I like give like, give a Tedx talk like, how do I start a podcast. Like you did? And honestly, the answer is like, I don’t know. It just kinda happened. It was like so I would. I would just be in a place, and I would like feel prompted to do something.

And so when when I was living in Arizona. I felt prompted to like I’d I’d been blogging for a while about my experiences. Just like there was a humor blog. It was like funny. I would just write about funny things that happened. And I was like I need to come out on my blog. And that was a really scary thing to do, but it was the right thing.

and then like my blog before, had, like a few 100 readers like my friends, would read it like that, was it?

And then suddenly, there were thousands of people reading my blog, and and I was saying things that that people hadn’t heard before, and sharing experiences that were new to people. And I just like got this bug of like, Oh, my gosh! This is wonderful! Like I can educate people and make my community better. And then I thought, I’m all alone in this town.

Maybe there are other gay Larry Saints here who could also benefit from connection. And so then I started this little support group, and in the 2 years I ran it grew to like 3 dozen people in Tucson, Arizona. And and it wasn’t because I was like, I’m gonna start A, I’m gonna start a movement. I’m gonna start a support group. It was like, maybe there’s someone who’s lonely like. I’m lonely, maybe someone.

Maybe I could not be lonely with someone else, you know, like, maybe we can be there for each other, and that’s how that happened. And then, the way my book happened was, I like, when you write a blog post, it doesn’t matter how good it is. It has a very short shelf life, you know. People read it for a few days, and then it falls off the radar. And I thought I, wanna write something that that will be read for a few years at least.

And so that’s how I ended up writing my book. And then, when that was done I thought, I so when I submitted my manuscript to the publisher, like, like, just a week later, I was on this panel at Byu, at Brigham Young University, where where I was working at the time

which is a the church owned university, and and it was called reconciling faith and sexuality. And the people could submit questions for for PE for the panelists to answer, and I was the only the only gay person on the panel. The other 2 people were straight, but like good allies. And so there there were all these questions submitted by queer Byu students, anonymously, and they were good questions, and we only answered a handful of them.

And then, after that, I thought we should really discuss these questions like, How do we do that? I was like, Oh, maybe I could start a podcast. Where we answer questions for people who are in the closet. I was like, oh, it’s a great podcast. Title, questions from the closet. And that’s how that’s how it came to be. Then the the first, like 20 episodes, came from those questions. And then we just kept doing it. But it was. It’s just like I never thought. Oh, I want to start a podcast or I want to write a book. It’s just like life sort, like, I just kind of noticed these little gaps and ways. I could help and do things that that no one else was doing and and and fill in, and So

so when people ask me like, How do I get to be where you are like, how do I do what you’re gonna do? And honestly, it’s like, just look at the doors that are open in front of you and walk through them and and I. And there’s this quote that guides my life, and it’s from the Lorax. And it says, unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot. Nothing is going to get better, it’s not. And so I think, well, what? What is something that I care about? What is something that I can do to make the world a a little better.

And you know the the truth is that, like I haven’t changed the world.

But I’ve made some people’s lives better, and that really matters. And you know, this happens to me regularly where I’ll be like walking across campus, or I’ll be at the grocery store, and someone will say, Are you Ben Schladdy? And I’ll say, I am like, I read your book and save my family. or I listened to your podcast. And it. It helped me not hate myself. And you know, that’s not, you know, that’s that’s not world change, like, I didn’t change the country. But I did change some lives, and and that matters. And and I just realized I don’t want anyone to have to have to be so alone like I was, and I want to provide resources so that so that so that people don’t have to go through the the same hard times I did alone. And the truth is like like I I benefit so much from the people who came before me like I’m able to be an openly gay, active Larry sane right now, because other people came before me and laid the pavers for me to have this life and I wanna just make sure that I’m paying it forward and and leaving pavers for the people who are coming after me, so that they can walk a path a little easier, that I I had to sometimes tread alone.

Meagan – And thank you for doing that. You have blessed many lives maybe one last point about your journey I would like to touch on. If you’re okay with that last year, sometime. I honestly cannot remember exactly when. But you made a very purposeful decision and that was to I think you use the word date.

Ben – Believe.

Meagan – Introduce that into your life, into your personal, social? I think we could even say spiritual, mental journey. Can you share a little bit about that?

Ben – So I’ve been working at at Brigham University, and and one of the rules for students and employees is that is no same sex. Stadium is allowed. So that was off the table for me. And even before I worked at at Byu, when I was living Arizona, you know, those rules didn’t apply to me, and I I was out in public, and I just didn’t feel like it was the right thing for me. I felt like, no, I’m meant to be single, and and and there are things that I can do as a single person. I couldn’t do as as a partnered person, and this was the right thing for me to do. And then in October of last year, it was October I decided that maybe it was time to start dating. I I’ve I’ve learned and grown in so many ways, and I just felt prompted. This was the next way that I was going to learn and grow. And for me this isn’t about like finding a boyfriend like that’s not what this is about. I just felt like there were things I was gonna learn, and people who would come into my life only through this way. And I needed to do that so that so that I could have those growth experiences and and and meet those people. Now that was back in October, you know it’s May now, and I’m still very single like, I’m super duper single but I have learned a ton like I. I have learned an absolute ton just in the last 8 months.

Meagan – Love that so much.

Ben – And this is one of the things I I have learned. In my thirties, like in most my thirties, I I was like actively single, like I was actively choosing to be single. And I really wasn’t that lonely like? Life was really good and really full. And suddenly I decided I was gonna start dating is something I was lonely. I was like, Oh, I wanna find a partner like I. I’m doing this like absence in my life, and the one of the things I had done is, I had dismissed the feelings of other single people because I was so happily single and I forgot what it felt like too long for a partner.

And I think that has made me so much more compassionate. And also, you know, since I didn’t I I’ve never really like actively dated people. The same section. So I’m getting to learn now is like, Well, am I into this person, or am I just lonely like? Do I do I like this person, or am I just tired, you know, and and I’m I’m getting to learn those things. And and I think, Well, I just have to date someone. Maybe I should just date that person over there. And I’m like, Well is this, is that what this is about? Just like dating the person who’s available. And and so I’m I’m getting to like, learn all these things that I didn’t get to learn when I was younger. And honestly, it’s been really good and and I really positive experience one of the since I was so public about. I’m gonna start dating. Honestly, it was a little embarrassing when, like 3 months had passed and I was still single, and I was like, Oh, I have to date just like so I could say I dated. So I’m like, no, no, this isn’t what that’s about. This is, this is just about this is about me like having both experiences. And this isn’t about how other people perceive me.

Meagan – Oh, I love that! That’s great! That’s so valuable, Ben, that you’ve learned so much. It’s giving you so much empathy and so much insight. And yeah, what great reminders? In 2,019 you made a blog post called Pride is the opposite of shame. This episode, like, I said, is going to release in June. There’s still some controversy about June being pride month. Can you share? I’m going to put a link to this blog post in in the show notes. But I really appreciate this post so much. I loved your perspective. Can you just share a little bit about it with our listeners.

Ben – Yeah, so I know a lot of people feel uncomfortable with with pride. Month and and and what what that can look like and what what that can mean. And people can be, especially uncomfortable with the way it might seem like like in your face, like we was like shoving this in your face. And so I wrote this post called Pride is the opposite of shame, because if you look at you know, if you look in the dictionary, in the in the Thesaurus, and look at the word pride. You know one of the antennas of of pride is shame. and so I I hated myself so much for being gay like I hated my orientation so much. and like I did everything I could to change like I prayed to change. I fasted to change. I kissed a girl to change, you know. I went to therapy to change. and and none of that worked even a little bit, and I’ve been taught very explicitly at church that that same sex attraction was a trial and a temptation and an affliction of this life that wouldn’t exist in the next life. And so this led to years of my life when I would have rather been dead and straight instead of alive and gay.

And so so that that’s a lot of shame. That’s a lot of like internalized homophobia, a lot of self hatred. And so me, what what the word pride means is, it’s getting rid of all that shame, all that self hatred, and saying, I’m going to live my best life the way that God sent me to earth. And so so, if if the word pride makes you feel uncomfortable, words, like some sentence of pride, are dignity and honor. and so for me, you know. If if you don’t like the word pride, you know gay dignity means I am going like I am a whole person who can live a life of value. You know gay honor means that I I am someone who can, can, can, can, who can’t contribute to society the way I am. and that’s I’m gonna do. And I’m planning on writing a new post this this month for for next month about about the word pride, and how pride also is like a like a family of lions, and how what pride means to me is, you know we’re meant to be family and.

Meagan – Oh, well, I will surely link that too.

Ben – Haven’t written it yet. Hopefully. Look

Meagan – I know, but I’m sure you will. By the time.

Ben – But but I got this phrase from from my friend. Yes. Who got a community together in in.

Meagan – He was on the he was on the podcast a few months ago. Yeah.

Ben – He’s wonderful. And and he he collected a a group of like a bunch of stories of of Lgbtq Byu Hawaii students, and then, like, put them in a binder, and he like wrote a letter at the beginning in it. And then he said, all of these people have felt like lions to to to move forward in their lives. But even lions can’t survive without their pride. And so I just I just feel that intensive like like, like, we need one another. And I think what one of the reasons like this podcast is is important is because, so many people feel alone when, if they’re doubting or questioning, and and if someone is is doubting or questioning like, that’s not, that’s not bad, that’s not wrong. It’s just part of their life, and and no one should have to go through any experience alone, because we can’t survive without our pride.

Meagan – I have learned that pride, sorry doubt, is, is a catalyst for growth. Doubt is a refiner of our belief and it’s I think God intended it. I really do. I think it’s all part of the big picture. It’s it’s not something to run from. It’s it’s part of the the picture. And so with that, my my last question I always ask is. What does it mean to you to live beyond the shadow of doubt?

Ben – Yeah, I I think I think you know, when we when you say like like this, like a shadow of a doubt, like a shadow in means that there’s something like in the way that’s like blocking the light. And so for me, it’s it like living beyond the shadow of a doubt is, is trusting that there is more to come, that I have that there are a lot of puzzle pieces in front of me, and I’ve put a lot of them together, and they’re gonna get keep getting put together. And the and the pictures gonna get more and more complete. And to just trust that, you know. Right now I’ve got enough. and I’ll get more tomorrow. And you know that’s what God taught the Israelites with Manna. You know they weren’t allowed to keep it till the next day, like they had to get it more like more of it every day. and I feel the same way. I just trust that that I have enough for today. and tomorrow I’ll have what I need, and the next I’ll have. I’ll have enough for what I need, and just trusting that that more will come.

Meagan – Wow! That is a brilliant analogy. I love that. It’s the first time I’ve heard that one. That’s great. Okay. really quick question. So our listeners can get to know you a little bit better. I’m looking for one or 2 word answers.

Ben – Huh!

Meagan – Are you ready?

Ben – Ready!

Meagan – Tell us your favorite book.

Ben – Probably the Book of Mormon. I know that’s so lame, but it’s true.

Meagan – Okay are, I know, the answer to this question, are you an introvert or an extrovert?

Ben – I am the biggest extrovert. I am.

Meagan – She was a.

Ben – Interpreted.

Meagan – Yes. thus the needy and attention grabbing favorite. What is your who is your favorite artist?

Ben – Oh, like like painter.

Meagan – You pick?

Oh.

Ben – Gosh! I’m not a big art person, so I don’t know. But I love.

Meagan – I mean music, artist, I love.

Ben – I love vintage travel posters, so whoever does designs those.

Meagan – Okay, that’s fun, are you an I owl or morning lark.

Ben – I’m a morning or sorry. I’m a night owl through and through. My ideal bedtime is like 1230 in the morning.

Meagan – My most favorite answer is, I had a guest answer, I’m both or I’m sorry. No, she said, neither. Yeah.

Okay. Do you have a celebrity, crush.

Ben – I mean it comes and goes right now. It’s Jonathan Groff. He’s in this play on Broadway. Called merrily. We roll along. But he’s the voice he’s he’s in Hamilton. He’s the voice of Hans, frozen, talented

Meagan – Oh, how fun! Okay, do you do? Still carbonated water? Are you a diet soda fan

Ben – Oh, I actually do carbonated water. I like Lacroix when I go to a restaurant I like, if they have the option, to get the soda water. I just like the carbonation.

Meagan – Fun, and then finally, the furthest place you’ve traveled.

Ben – I think the the farthest I’ve traveled I had a layover in Dubai on my way to Turkey. I think Turkey was probably the farthest I like actually was, but I was in Dubai for a few hours in the airport.

Meagan – So you got to look out the window and see all the tall building spots.

Ben – But there’s Kalifa from the plane. It was amazing.

Meagan – That is amazing. Well, Ben, thank you so so much. If folks wanted to connect with you or reach out with to you for questions and whatnot. What would be the easiest way.

Ben – Yeah, the easiest way would be on Instagram or Facebook. I respond to Instagram messages and Facebook messages. That’s easiest way. The hardest part is spelling Scheladdy, right? So if you can spell Ben Schladdy, I’m the only benchlate on on the Internet. So I’m really easy to find. I also have a web page. Ben schladty.com that you can submit a like a message through.

Meagan – And I will leave make sure you check out Ben’s book. A walk in my shoes, and we will leave that in the show notes as well as links to your podcast and to all the things your Tedx talk all of it there. It’s all so so good. Thank you. Thank you. This has been really fun. Appreciate your time so much.

Ben – Course it’s an honor.