Episode 108: When Parker came out of his closet, I went into mine, Sara Cunningham, founder of Free Mom Hugs

Meagan – Everyone welcome to today’s episode of beyond the shadow of doubt. I am Megan Skidmore, your host. And today I have Sarah Cunningham with me.

and if you do not yet know who Sarah Cunningham is. you will after today, and

you are going to love her as much or more as I do. I, was first introduced to Sarah through the organization that she founded

free mom, free mom Hugs and I will let her share more about that in a minute.

and then I had the privilege

of getting to meet you in person a few months ago at Pride Frisco, their second annual

pride celebration in 2023. So welcome, Sarah.

Sara – Thank you, Megan. Thank you so much. I’ve been really looking forward to this, you know. We talked we met in Frisco. And wasn’t that a great time together?

Meagan – So welcome? I am so thrilled to have you today?

Sara – Thank you, Megan. Is that right? My gosh, I overthought it.

Meagan  One day I’m gonna do some out takes gonna be awesome.

Sara That’s okay, is it?

Meagan  Think of it’s me again, like, hey? It’s me again. Who’s calling? It’s me again, Megan.

me and Longy. Oh, my gosh.

Sara  you can again. Okay. Got me again.

Meagan So thank you so much, Sarah, for taking time out of your I know your schedule is so busy.

Thank you for being with me for these 45, 50 min to day.

Sara Thank you me again. I have really been looking forward to this time ever since we spoke, and it was wonderful to meet you. Is it pride, Frisco.

cause I always got them turned around. Frisco. Pride or pride I don’t know. To be honest with you. Well, in that little town in Texas was so much fun, and it was a beautiful day. I I always loved going to prides because it’s a time set aside to just bring awareness to the Lgbtq community and their allies. And it’s just always very special time

Meagan  it really is. And there’s always so much love.

Sara Yeah, how if you go to a pride festival, and don’t feel the love. You don’t have a heart.

Meagan – I would love to give you as much time as as we can, so that our listeners can get to know who you are and your mission? Would you just take a moment and share with us your background? Sorry. Anything that you feel comfortable sharing

Sara – I’d love to for those of you who may not have heard of Sarah Cunningham or the free Mom Hugs movement the cliff notes are that my name is Sarah Cunningham. I was born and raised in Oklahoma. I have 2 children married to my husband.

And we’ve lived in the same home for over 30 years, and our youngest son, Parker, is gay, and he’s the reason why we’re here.

Parker. Well, we raised our children in a very evangelical mainstream conservative church. We were there every time that church doors were open. We did a lot of really wonderful things inside and outside of the fellowship there and anytime the doors were open. We were there.

and that’s the way we raised our kids, and

otherwise they just had. A normal childhood went to school public schools. I was a secretary before I was the founder of a free mom. Hugs nonprofit.

And yeah, that’s a good start.

Meagan – So you were born and raised in Oklahoma.  That’s not just where you raised your family, but you also were raised.

Sara – Yes, I was born and raised here. There was a time when I would beg my mother not to let me be buried in Oklahoma. I thought it was so boring, but now I really couldn’t imagine living anywhere else. The cost of living is good.

I love serving the community here, and my family is here, so I couldn’t imagine being anywhere else

right?

Meagan – so you you mentioned that you raised your children in a Conservative Evangelical Evangelical Church? Was that where also raised in in your childhood.

Sara – Well, we weren’t practicing Southern Baptist growing up, though I did ride the church bus every time they’d offer a pizza party or vacation Bible school because my friends were going, but we were not consistent. It wasn’t until

I grew up, you know, and  had children of our own that I thought, you know we should raise them. with some religion.

Meagan – Okay. so can you 1, one of my goals in starting this podcast is to normalizing

journeys, that they’re all different. And they’re all good. There’s they’re all gonna not look the same. And and that’s okay. That’s

really how it’s supposed to be. They’re going to be as unique an individual as there are number of humans on this planet that have come before and that will yet to come as well.

and that. having

questions and allowing doubts, are just a normal part of a faith journey. Historically, there’s been a lot of shame attached to having questions and doubts.

particularly in faith communities. I have found that in my faith, origin, and and the more

folks that I have talked to through the course of this podcast and and through my own personal studies and reading

it. That seems to be the case with a lot of conservative face.

Different and or not. Oh, there’s this view of it’s not okay. If you’re outside of what

maybe the the general congregation or perceived you know belief of the general congregation?

So I’d love to hear more about just your journey, you know. Now, like you shared about you raised your your kids in your evangelical faith is, how is it now? Is it?

Sara – Well, II would like to add that you know, at the time when when my firstborn was born, and we decided, my husband and I, that we would go to a church. Listen, I was just glad to. I mean

I was a Christian who just happened to go to a Southern Baptist church. We could walk there from our house. It was the neighborhood church. All those school kids from the same schools that my our kids went with went to that church, a youth group there. So it just made sense that that is the church. It just so happened to be. It just so happened to be a Southern Baptist church. I knew nothing about the doctrine or the theology.

but I loved that church fellowship, I as a family. We had shared births of babies and weddings and meals, and just very tender, intimate community

type things in and out of our lives. So when

always oh, I was also raised never to question authority, never to talk about sex or money, and it’s my opinion that. That’s how we got into this myth, not just on this particular subject, but

and a lot of em so but it was once Parker came out of his closet that I went into mine, and I could not reconcile everything that I had been taught, that I absorbed

with the God I knew of love. And and it was it was devastating. Quite frankly, it’s really hard. it was devastating.

Meagan – so wow! That’s I love that you’re you’re just being real about this. When Parker came out of the closet you went into yours.

Sara – Well. what do you think?

Meagan – Tell tell me, tell us more about what you mean by that, and why it happened in that way, you think.

Sara – Well, Parker tried to have the conversation with me. That that he is gay several times over his adolescent life.

But I always manipulated the conversation. I thought it was a phase. I thought that God wouldn’t allow my child being raised in the Southern in this, in Christianity to be gay, I thought

that it was just something that I wasn’t having right. And then he turned 21 he met someone, and he said, Mom, I need you to be okay about it. And that’s when

the reality hit that he’s gay. And  to see him live authentically, and you know at that time to be happy and healthy before he had to check himself at the door in our home, at our place of worship. And so I went into my closet because I didn’t even know how to have the conversation forget about saying even the word homosexuality, or LGBT. QIA 2 spirit plus. And so to me it was all about sex.

and I didn’t know how to talk about it. I didn’t have anyone. We didn’t  talk about that in the church. We didn’t have same-sex couples get married or serve in the community in the fellowship.

so I literally had no one. I thought I was the only mother with a gay kid.  thinking that my son is going to hell and damnation for eternity, because he’s gay, because I was taught and absorbed the idea that it was the ultimate of offensive. I was frozen in that fear for his very salvation, and also, in in addition to that, if I accept him, even tolerate

Parker being gay, that made me just as much of a sinner.  So it’s it’s a vicious.

terrible cycle. In fact, I heard someone say one time that the most hurtful thing you can do is use someone’s faith against them.

and it’s true. And this was with the very best of intentions from our elders, from our pastors, from the pulpit.

you know. I really don’t believe it was out of malice, or I do believe that it was with the very best of intentions.

That we were taught that. But it was. It was just devastating. I didn’t know where to look for resources. I didn’t know any other parent. And then so I wrote a book about that journey. I could only think about writing about it. Yeah.

And slowly I began to see Parker, happy and healthy, living authentically, seeing people really celebrate him before I could or would. and seeing and hearing their stories and learning about things like the history of human sexuality and science, and evidence

that convinced me beyond a shadow of a doubt that I believe that homosexuality is a gift from God to our families to the world around us.

and that the Scripture used to condemn. even with the very best of intentions, has been misinterpreted, misunderstood, and misused.

And so That is what I’m accountable to so, and I’m still a woman of faith. I have not lost my faith.

Bye.

Meagan – I can see that I can feel that a thousand per cent.

2 2 things I wanted to. kind of circle back to that. You mentioned first that

you felt that you were taught that your tolerance even of your son. meant that you were complicit. And I think that’s just.

It’s a point that is worth repeating, because if there is a parent who is listening to day, and who also can who understands being in that place.

that they might reconsider that belief, because. unfortunately, there are kids who are being ejected from their homes

because of that belief. and for me, personally, as a person of faith. there is no love, the God that I know and understand and believe in.

They’re there is no place in in a heart that would would say that that’s a godly heart that would say that that would be okay to eject your own child, your own family from your home?

Sara – It it sounds absurd, even talking about it and people who’ve not gone through being raised or

there. There’s, you know, so many people who just weren’t raised in the church, and they just don’t get it. They just can’t believe. And I understand that now. But the reality is

that’s what we’re taught. This is what we’ve absorbed my generation. That homosexuality is wrong, that something bad had to happen to my son to make him gay, or I failed as a woman of faith, as a mother

Meagan – was taught to my generation, too. Some circles. Yeah, sorry. Go ahead.

Sara – Well, you know we talk about the oppression

what happens is that you raise your children in a church that’s non affirming. That means they will not celebrate the spiritual gifts of the gay community

or they won’t allow the gay community to even serve if they feel called to.

So that’s a non affirming church. It’s a dangerous place, because we raise our children in this beautiful fellowship that’s doing a lot of good in the neighborhood outside the neighborhood in the world.

but they grow up and they fall in love and don’t understand why they’re excommunicated from the church, because they’re in same-sex attraction or not allowed to go to the youth. You know. Camp.

Meagan – It’s devastating, and it’s devastating. There’s not a place for them.

Sara – No, it’s devastating, and that’s the dangerous thing, and you know there’s a practice called conversion therapy. I’m sure you’ve heard of it, but the listeners who may not have conversion therapy is any

therapy practice or prayer that would try to change a person from being gay to straight, and it’s deadly, but it’s still legal, sought out and paid for

in my state, maybe in yours. And since we’re talking about numbers in 30 States, my son.

our LGBT. Q. Plus family and friends, could be denied housing, health care even thrown out of a public space because of how they identify. When I first became this advocate

accidental advocate.  it was in 29 states. And now it’s in 30.

So people who are not aware of this  or have children who are, or family members who are gay, they don’t get it because I was in my forties before I learned the difference between gender identity and sexual orientation.

I was in my thirties before I understood of the significance of a little gay bar in New York City called the Stone Wall Inn.

It didn’t affect me so I wasn’t concerned or didn’t pay attention to those things. I just had tunneled vision on what I was expecting of my child or my family.

And

Meagan – yeah, it’s it’s crazy to think about it.

Sara – Sorry. Got long winded there.

Meagan –  No, no, no apologies. Yeah. yes, all of these are the realities of today. unfortunately. luckily, there are folks like you who are moving in more inclusive.

loving, accepting direction.

Sara – I’m just doing things to Meagan that I wish someone would have done when I was trying to figure things out. Number one, learning that you’re not alone. You are not alone.

and there’s so many resources out there now to not have a better understanding on what it means to be gay.

Meagan – Yeah, absolutely. So. You you mentioned that you no. And except I would insert the word, believe your son

in his story that he’s telling you right. But at 1 point you did not, can you? You did mentioned. There’s there’s research which there is, and there is science behind it. But

even without that can you share what? What was the turning point or points for you when you just

you just knew you just believed your son. You knew that what he was sharing with you was his truth.

Sara – I would say there were pivotal moments. It didn’t happen over night. It was a journey. and I think ultimately it was just seeing him happy.

and it made sense

on all the challenges that we had when he was growing up

so not only that, but

and not to make it about me by any means, but I want our listeners to know that

with that mindset I missed an entire adolescence of my son’s life that I’ll never get back.

I shamed him into throwing away journals. artwork.

anything that I thought even hinted to or gave

not

to be. Yeah. And so we’re still open and vulnerable. I behaved in ways that I regret even today, I said.

and that that takes a lot of therapy. So parents out there, I’m trying to save you. If if you don’t understand when you hear the words, Mom, I’m gay, mom, I’m trans. Mom.

I don’t know what I am, but straight, is not it?

When your children tell you who they are, believe them, and that can apply whether they’re 7

or 77.

When your children, when someone you love, when your neighbor tells you who they are, believe them.

and especially mothers with children.

You can learn to celebrate your child, or you will learn to live without them. And that’s the truth.

Meagan – Yes, it is. What role would you say that Parker’s identity.

his coming out played you shared a little bit about it, but on a more

like soul level.

What role did Parker’s identity play

and your journey. As

Sara – I’m so sorry for the interruption, my earbuds went out. Can you still hear me mate me again? Yeah, yeah, I can’t no worries at all.

Meagan – Tell? Can you share what

role Parker’s identity played in your personal faith journey as a Christian like you were? You’ve you’ve shared with us how you were, how you believed, how you behaved.

how you practiced right!

Oh.

Sara – what changed! I don’t know what is happening. It  pushed me out, and once I put them back in their pod, it turned them back on, can you hear me, dear? Yeah.

okay. Now they’re working. Would you please ask that question?

Meagan – So I’m gonna give

to collapse, cause that lets me know easier work. So

what role did Parker’s identity, his coming out play in your personal faith journey. You know you’ve shared with us how you were as a Christian before, how you believed, and your

your behaviors the things that you said

on on. On very much a soul level. How?

What role has his coming out played in you as a Christian?

Sara – The role that he played was was just like. Have you changed? Are you different now? How are you different? Is it? Yes, I’m different in the way that I view

doctrine. I still believe in God. I believe in the Scriptures. I believe. that that I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit. I believe in the fellowship of believers.

I just I don’t go to a church regularly when I do. It’s to a fully affirming church.

But if anything, I think I’m even more more. How do I say this? Like, I see humanity

turn it. Okay, you can. Just you just keep them off, just you. You said, I see humanity. Yeah, if anything, what has changed the most?

And II think if I could, I’ll tell you a story, cause I think it will give give you a great picture? Certainly.

So. A very epic

in my life. Now, can you hear me now?

You can cause it said that things change. I’m going to unplug them and throw them all away.

Yes, so

so I’ll share a story, because I think that will give you a great picture, and if you, your listeners, will follow along. It was in 2,014 that Parker invited me and his father to go to the Oklahoma City Pride Festival with him and some of his friends.

Well, Meagan. I was still on the fence like I prayed to God. I said, Lord, I want to see your favor there, because

I don’t know if I should even go. You know that’s where I was. I was still learning still on the fence, and I could have Googled what pride meant the pride, the history of pride for the gay community.

I didn’t want that. I wanted God’s favor. I wanted to see and understand for myself this experience.

So we went with Parker, and we stood on the corner of 30 Ninth and Penn.

and it was at near the end of the parade, and this the processions coming down, and there’s

flags and rainbows and just beautiful people, such diversity

that I remembered a time prior to that, like a year before that.

I was at a Mexican restaurant with one of my church friends, and you know what I’m saying when I say she prayed over me. You know where you kind of point your hand in that direction, and you pray over someone. Will she pray that I would have such an impact on the gay community that they would want to leave that lifestyle?

Yeah, that memory came into my head at that moment, and I looked up to the heavens.

and I thought the audacity of that prayer

then. and the mom that I am now.

I had a huge rick sized lump in my throat, and I cried hot tears, and I said, Lord, thank you that I am the one changed.

I am the one changed. and I don’t assume anything about anyone.

And I had just the bound love for this community.

and that was the day that changed everything.

Meagan – Wow! I that helped it, did absolutely.

I think that this  you know, we’re here to  to find happiness and peace and joy and love. And I don’t think sometimes

enough. Emphasis is given to that or or meaning. You said a little bit earlier.

You could just see how much happier Parker was

right, and going to this Pride festival, and having this memory

come back to your recollection.

I mean you experience real joy there.

And you did it on you, you allowed yourself to define it.

You did it on your own terms. You did it in a way that resonated, too. with you and to you to your core.

that’s something that this journey has really given me. The opportunity to cultivate. Is that relationship to self and defining? My path, my journey and giving myself permission to acknowledge

how I feel. This doesn’t feel right, or doesn’t resonate, or doesn’t sit well with me, and

having that be a valid way

to feel, to experience life, to acknowledge that there’s so much cognitive dissonance that comes up in this journey when you have been raised in a conservative faith background. And then, when your reality

is showing you very clearly, teaching you something very different, and that cognitive dissonance is real, and it often brings up a lot of hurt and a lot of pain.

In trying to reconcile. I’ve heard you use that word.

Sara – yeah.

Meagan – how have you? How have you done that in your own personal journey? Meaning when? When do you can you remember giving yourself that permission, or just realizing?

How do you navigate those points of question, of doubt, of of,

Sara – well, I think early in the early in the journey I just remembers being so depressed, and I can only think of the word that Scripture talks about Kane and able how his face was downcast. And that’s the only way I could describe it, and I do write about that in my book. I

one morning I looked at my face in the mirror, and I had an expression that I had never seen before on my face, and I thought, That’s downcast

when you are judging or shaming someone, or even yourself that’s downcast.

So that was very raw emotion. And then, later, what got me through it is to find a private online Facebook group for moms with Lgbtq plus kids. And of course I wrote my book, the book begins at the church and ends at the Pride Parade. Me free. Mom Hugs is not mentioned in the book because it wasn’t on my radar. It wasn’t until I started volunteering flag and other services here before

that begin. So but finding the private online Facebook group with moms with gay kids. And there were resources there. But

I was 250. I was the 200 fiftieth mom in that group. And we all.

we’re sharing the same story. How we’ve been alienated from our church families on this journey, looking for resources, trying to save our children to

and now there’s like 40,000 moms. Guess what?  Meagan, we all have the same story. We all have the same story. So you get in the group and you find out you’re not alone. You find the resources that you need, and then guess what you find your voice. And you start changing the conversation at the water cooler. You start celebrating this beautiful dynamic in your child and moms, learn from other moms

and to see someone else celebrate my son before I could or should or would was a huge check in me. So

Meagan – you cannot underestimate the power of community and of belonging and feeling connected and and like. You have a home there, and that is so powerful.

the strength the love, the acceptance that you can feel. Even if it’s a virtual online group.

Sara – I will tell you that. One of the things that I hear the most from the community say when I’m at a pride festival or

an event that’s for the community. And if we’re having a moment. a conversation, a connection, the thing that I hear the most is they’ve lost their sense of belonging.

Meagan – Yeah. And if I mean. we’re tribal as humans, we

at a very core family comes in right on that note. Then you said this was all before free, mom, free, mom hugs, tell us all about that. Where did that come from? I love. It was what happened was, us to pride, and

Sara – I just fell in love with this beautiful community and realized these are beautiful, misunderstood people.

And then I started volunteering at second chance, Prom at P. Flag for the Pride Board, meeting more and more of the community for the next year. This was in 2,014 when we stood with Parker at the Pride Parade. I worked through that year, really, you know, learning, making myself available, serving the community.

And then, in 2,015, I made a homemade button that said free Mom hugs.

And with anyone who made eye contact with me, I would say, could I offer you a free mom hug or a high 5 cause not everybody’s a hugger. And so the first hug I gave went to a beautiful young girl who said it had been 4 years since she had a hug from her mother, because she’s a lesbian.

and my heart sank. I held her close, and I said, Well, I’m a mom, and here’s a hug, and I’m not letting go until you do. And from that experience started the nonprofit free. Mom hugs, and this logo is recognized worldwide, and it sends a message whether you can use your words or not, that you are a strong and faithful ally.

and we go to pride parades. We have chapters in every state, every region, and when we’re at a pride festival, we truly celebrate the community, we hug. We make connections. If if they’re not a hugger, we just acknowledge them and say, we love you. We’re so proud of you. This is your day.

Now go have fun.

and we offer sunscreen and bottled water, and we just try to be that loving presence in the lives of those who’ve been alienated from their church homes, from their church families and biological families, and from society.

So

we want to do whatever we can to be that loving present. Sometimes it looks like a care package. Sometimes it looks like a national pride ride, sometimes it looks like a transgender Valentine’s banquet.

We do whatever we can to be that loving presence and our mission, if I may. I love our mission statement because it’s exactly

explains free mom hugs is that we want to empower the world to celebrate the LGBT. QIA. Plus community through visibility, through education and through conversation, because those are the things that convinced me beyond a shadow of a doubt that being gay is good.

Meagan – Wow!

That is beautiful and heart-wrenching and soul-filling and

bittersweet, all wrapped up into one big, fat.

emotional. Yeah. That is such an amazing, amazing mission.

I love your mission so much. And that story of the first

person that you offer to hug to.

I don’t. I don’t. I don’t upload the video, but II have my free mom hugs on on my favorite logo. It is my favorite logo on, but it got cold, so I just grabbed my closest.

Sara – But I’m wearing the free mom hugs logo on our shirts or buttons or stickers. There.

they just send a message, you know. I just got a a private message the other day from a person who had been at their vet.

and she was leaving. A woman was coming in, and the woman had a button, a free mom hugs button.

and she was leaving, and she went back in and asked for a hug

because she recognized the button

and knew that it would be safe to do so.

Meagan – II have an amazing story. I went to Vegas with my best friend this past year, fiftieth and I was wearing my free mom hugs T-shirt, and we saw

Kelly, Clarkson, and this whole entire row next to me found out that was a bunch of

friends, but they were all gay, all of them, and when they saw my shirt they just lined up, and I am not kidding you every single one of

are you kidding me? I’ll get over it. And they? I got so many hugs that night. It was

so special. Oh, I do. Yes, I love it so so much. I’ll leave shown up for so folks can get their own. Yeah.

Sara – Do you remember your very first hug like? Add up, have you been to a pride festival with Fremont? II well, you were. You were just in tech, we yes,

Meagan –  I think I found out about you all online. First, because I totally relate to that feeling of you know, people don’t talk about this a lot. And so when you were sharing how in the beginning, you and you found that online group of 250 fellow parents.

Because up to that point you really hadn’t talked to many people about it. And

so a lot of my connections in the very beginning were virtual plus for us. This journey happened.

and then well, I mean the beginning of it. And then the pandemic hit. So a lot of it was, you know, during that time.

I’ve shared my story in multiple places

where I can leave links where people can read about it. It’s hard to go into detail. That’s why we refer folks to

where I’ve already shared it. But yeah, in the beginning,

So much of it was well, at the very, very beginning it was.

yeah, pretty. Hush, hush! Because that’s hard. It’s just when you’re in this

part of

in an area or in a community. And I mean a civic community, a neighborhood community, a faith community, even your family community. When

there’s certain beliefs in place, it’s just hard to

to really talk about it, but

I will say I have. There are II will always remember.

I met in the in the airport someone who I’d seen on Ellen, who came out as well, who was found out as gay in OK. Tonga. He was actually fired from his job in Colorado.

not explicitly because of his orientation, but because he wouldn’t take down some social posts indicating that he had a boyfriend and whatnot. But anyway, I ran into him in the airport.

and I’m like.

Would you like a hip hug? And he’s like, Oh, yeah, he’s like the hugs are the best part about this space, and it is so true. And I’ve said that myself many times over there, so sincere.

And it’s all it’s just love, it’s just love. And so I feel your mission so much and and your purpose.

Now you have a best friend who also is a founder of a nonprofit. I’m gonna have her on zoom, so I won’t talk too much about Liz. But Liz started.

Sara – Firecracker

Meagan – started. The mama bears. Yeah, I think 

Sara – she founded mama bears. Maybe just a little bit before I finish the book. So we were kind of together. We do share a similar story

with our children, but I mean she had to.

It was about the same time.

Meagan – That’s yeah. I’m I’m still looking forward to that interview. I’ll try to air these kind of close. But  anyway, yeah.

love this love this space so very much. I wanted to

come back to address one area that we really haven’t yet, and that is

when this, when this was happening and and when you were going through these struggles?

do you remember? Like

I know in the beginning you didn’t talk much to your friends or family or your faith community. One of the things I like to talk about are are safe spaces, and I’ve even extended that now to really

brave spaces, because a safe space include is is under the assumption that

both parties will be open and respectful, and, you know, have their hearts and their minds and their ears open. And that’s not always the case. That’s the ideal. But that’s not always the case. And so recently I’ve shifted to to brave spaces.

But for you.

did you try to share your journey in your faith community? And if not, you know

what? What kept you from doing that, or when you do remember trying to. You know, what was that like?

Sara – Yeah, that was a great, that’s a great question. Early in this journey. Of course I have had mentors

girlfriends at church that we served together for the better part of 20 years.

and

I confided with them, but they did not know how to minister to me, and I talk about one’s reaction, and we’ve talked since then. We’ve worked things out

In fact, she came out

late in life, but

but they said they didn’t want their son around that

when I told them about Parker, and it was devastating I was nickel, for every time I use the word devastating. But it truly, was it they just we didn’t know how to minister to each other. And again, there’s no malice, there’s no

II have to remember where I came from, that there’s a mom out there like me then, who needs to hear from a mom like me now.

and it’s real easy to just get focused.

But those 2 people that I confided in

we just alienated each other, really. And then, luckily, I found the private online Facebook group, so I could just pour myself in there. I could share everything my concerns, my anxiety. But I thought about, you know, homosexual homosexuality without putting that on, my child.

it’s so important to have that support for yourself

whether it’s through a group like that. Sometimes folks need a therapist, sometimes a life coach, sometimes an in person group, but that is the thing that

allows you to then be able to be there for your family, for your child. Right? I, yeah. Having that support is so paramount.

Yeah, I don’t know if I said this before, but it. It’s I believe that this will resonate with. If you have listeners that are maybe hearing the words, Mom, I’m not straight

that I needed to hear from someone who shared my faith that it’s okay to search the matter out.

I think when if someone comes to me and they do when someone they love comes out or they themselves come out. Then I’m available. I mean, of course, I’m available. But then they come to me and that’s okay.

But

You have to search. And now there’s so much information out there now me again that the only choice is to remain really in fear and ignorance of it, because there’s so much information out there, no matter where you stand, historically, scientifically, scripturally, biblically. And when you ask when you have Liz on here. I don’t want to give it all away, but she talks about fruit. You ask her about the fruit of

love. Fruit of you know God is love. Love is God and the fruit of the Spirit, and she gives a beautiful illustration of the fruit of love. And so the fruit is, seeing your child, happy and healthy.

and not self harming or at risk, behaviour or suicide. Isolation.

fruit is having empowering, lasting, authentic relationships with your children, with your family. That’s the fruit that’s so true. That’s a beautiful, and if it’s causing

thorny biting, trying to make something happen that’s bad through fruit, it’s bad theology, and it’s dangerous. And it’s deadly.

Meagan – Yes, it is it’s dead deadly in more ways than one.

Sara – virtual death that’s, why, we have to have conversations like these. I appreciate your platform so much. I looked at your I don’t know if it’s your mission statement on your talked about

represent or presenting opportunities. How changes in our lives present opportunities absolutely and redefine your identity. You assess your values and you embrace your emotions. I love that. Thank you. And

you using your talents where you’re at?  It’s just a gift in your lives, you really are.

Meagan – Yes, and I echo that right back to you. Sarah. I do.

Sara – This is not a competition, you know. Can you have to know that?

Meagan – I trust me? I’m just all about everybody jumping in and working together on this.

Sara – Can you have too much love? What if the rapture really is when everyone just gets it? I think I could handle that definition?

Meagan – Well the last question I have for you that I ask all of my guests the same question. You know the name of my podcast is beyond the shadow of doubt, I purposely dropped the A.

The the term to know something beyond the shadow of a doubt is something that I heard a lot growing up when when people would

witness or give testimony of what they felt or that they believed right. And I decided to name this podcast beyond the shadow of doubt to in an attempt to

get past that that negative connotation, that shame that that is often associated with having doubts right and and questions on that note. So

my question for you to wrap up is, what does it mean to you to live beyond the shadow of doubt

Sara – for me to live beyond a shadow of doubt is, I believe, by following

love, just walking in love and good, and producing good fruit, and by those measures

there’s no doubt that I’m on the right side of history and the right side power of the Holy Spirit. And I’m right with God.

Meagan – I love that sentiment so very much. I truly believe you can’t go wrong if you’re leading with love, because you’re coming from

the best place you know how at that moment you’re leading with love

if it hurts someone. I’m not talking about discipline, or, you know, rearing your children. That’s not what I’m talking about. But

Sara –   I would recommend to families, please. Just how you react to gay people on the television is gonna have a normal effect in the children and your family, whether it’s your immediate family or their friends over. Make your home a safe place, offer up a little rainbow somewhere, and so your kids know you’re a strong and faithful ally. Join free mom hugs. They know.

They’ll be safe, and if they’re not part of the community, then their friends will be safe because you have people around you that are gay lesbian, bisexual transgender. 2 spirit, and on, I pray someday we will not need the acronym, but until then we need it because it gives you

a vocabulary and an idea where you can see yourself in the identities of each letter. So it’s important to make that language available.

Meagan – I feel that I pray for the day that we just see each other as humans that are multifaceted. that have great depth. Beautiful spirits, so many gifts.

Sara –  Yes, things to offer one another, you know.

I don’t know that it will be in my lifetime, but maybe in. I don’t know grandchildren’s lifetime. Maybe maybe

Meagan – I hope so.

Sara –  And so I hope someday we don’t need free mom huts like we need it now.

but until until that day I’m more than happy to give up all the free mom hugs. We gotta get you signed up because you could be part of a region

Meagan – I am listed. I, just yeah, I need to get connected with the leadership. Yeah. So such a beautiful conversation. I like to throw out a few for fun. These questions at the end. This just is for us to get to know you. One or 2 word answers is all I’m looking for. You don’t have to

Sara – lemon pepper wings

Meagan – too hard. Yeah.

Sara – Lemon pepper wings.

Meagan – What is your favorite book? You can say your own, by the way?

Sara – Oh, the fate! My favorite book!

I would say, kinda what I’m reading now is really weird. It’s called Ufo and God.

And it’s based on a true story. But it’s about a man who has an experience with what we would call, or I would call

of Ufo.

And you know there’s talk about this stuff. But anyway, it came up on my feet, and it’s really intriguing. So

that’s a new one for me. I’ve never heard that I’ll have to look it up. I’m trying to flow with it. But.

I listen to a lot of

all different types

of books.

Meagan – Yay, always love new recommendations. Thank you. Are you an introvert or an extrovert.

Sara –  Here? 7. II go back and forth sometimes sometimes another.

Meagan – And who is your favorite artist.

Sara – Parker, my son?

Meagan – Awesome

Sara – , an artist, singer, songwriter. He’s amazing.

Skidmore (she/her): but he just doesn’t know it. He doesn’t know it yet.

Meagan  – Is there a place? We can send folks to see his art?

Sara – No, because I nag him to make a website for it? Does he listen to his mother? No. maybe one day make one, for one day. It’ll happen

my next nonprofit will be all moms who call people, nag them and tell them what to do.

Meagan – Okay, are you a morning lark or a night owl?

And do you do still, or carbonated water? Or do you do? Diet soda?

Sara – No diet whatsoever

Meagan – that’s best. Nothing diet ever best Do you have a celebrity crush

Sara – and

not really. I like

Meagan – not required. and then tell us the furthest place you have traveled.

Sara – I’ve been to India and Amsterdam.

Meagan – Oh, fun! I’ve been to amsterdam. Not not India, though

Sara C- you talk about, you know, just expanding your world view. or sure realize there’s so much more than just yourself.

Meagan – Yes, it is so expansive and mind broadening and hard expanding. Yeah, agree. 100. Well, if folks had questions for you, or wanted to connect with you or reach out to you what would be the best way for them to do that?

Sara – Yes, the best way to contact me is Sarah sara@freemomhugs.org.  and I do want to say that I officiate same-sex weddings, straight weddings. I officiate funerals, I bless do name blessings for our transgender community.

and I just love celebrating. So I’m available to do that

Meagan – awesome. Thank you

Sara – for standing at weddings. Also,

MEagan – you stand in at weddings. Okay.

Sara – yeah,

Meagan – that’s great. Tell us

Sara – how we sleep at night.

Meagan – Okay.

Sara – yeah. This is the book, the journey from the church to the Pride Parade. It is self published

to, not myself. But I have a tenth grade education. So you realize how limited your vocabulary is. But I’m very proud of it. I didn’t expect it to have the response that it has. And now it’s under contract to hopefully be made into a movie Covid.

Meagan – Okay. I will leave a link to your book in the show notes along with your email address.

Sara – Yes, absolutely.

Meagan – Yeah. It’s been a pleasure to chat with you today, Sara. Thank you.

Sara – Thank you. Meagan.