Episode 98: Putting the message out there on my own terms through art with J. Kirk Richards part 1

MEAGAN- Welcome everyone to the beyond the shadow of doubt. Podcast. whatever you are doing, stop and sit down and buckle up because I’m I. We have a treat in store for us to day. I have. artist, J. Kirk Richards, with me today I am honored and grateful and and thrilled in all of the things to have you with me to day. So thank you for agreeing to come on and be interviewed.

Kirk- It is a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.

MEAGAN- I am glad to hear that, I have admired Kirk’s artistry, his artwork for a long time and had the pleasure of meeting him in person recently at the gather conference that was held in Provo, Utah and so. luckily he agreed to come on and share about his faith journey. and his work. and inevitably how those 2 are intertwined. So with that, I want to turn the time over to you to share with our listeners a little bit about you and your background. Your family, your faith of origin. all the things that make up  you, and you know how you got to where you’re at now. Just go for it. 

Kirk- Okay, thank you. Mia. it’s funny, because I just there’s a trend going around social media right now to post where your 8 great-grandparents are from. Really all of mine are from Utah. So I hadn’t really even thought about that really. But so I seem to be very utan. I grew up. was born and grew up in Provo. just in the shadow of Brigham Young University on in the tree streets if you know where that is, just right there by Byu campus.

And I’m the fourth of 8 kids. And we did kind of the thing. The thing that we did in our family was music. So we all took music lessons. II played the French horn and the piano and so every day before school we would practice our instruments, and we would also have Scripture settings. So those are kind of the 2 staple in the morning. and I think I said, I’m fourth of 8 kids. I have 5 sisters, 2 brothers. and I loved art, though even though music was the thing in in in the home. I really loved drawing, and when I was about 13 I begged my parents to let me trade in my music lessons for art lessons. and they said, Well, I’ll keep going another year, and if you feel the same way any year, then maybe we’ll you know we’ll find you an art teacher. So they did. They made good on their promise to find me an art teacher, a year later.

and I then went on to Byu and I studied R. To be by UI got a mission called to the Italy Rome Mission, which was great for an office. Goodness like a dream, and you know it will really open up my eyes to being a kid from Provo. I’d only been on an airplane one of it once before my mission, and that was a flight to Las Vegas. So so this was a definitely had been out of outside of the country, and to, you know, suddenly be in the land of Michelangelo and Caravan Joe and all these great artists was definitely a blessing for me. So I came back. I for my mission. I finished up my degree. studied art briefly with an artist in on the East coast, and then and then just started. Well, I met my my wife Amy. We got married and just started trying to make a living as an artist right from the beginning. There, and we now have. We have 4 kids. 2 of them are adults. One of them is very good and we. my wife, has since more recently just finished an Msw. Degree. So she is now a practicing therapist, and for her Csww. Working towards getting licensed.

MEAGAN- So amazing.

Kirk- Yeah. So II grew up in a very Lds home Saturday same home. and my dad was bishop when I was probably I just before I became a teenager. And then what else? My mom has ha! Ha! Held lots of Collings done a lot of music, church music especially, and that’s one of the things that I’ve always loved in particular is church music. I’ve been the choir director. I’ve I’m currently one of 4 Ward organists. And yeah, I mean, sacred music has always been a an important part of my connection with religion. So anything else you you want me to delve into there or expand expand on?

MEAGAN- I don’t think so. What did you say your course of study was, what did you graduate in at Byu?

Kirk- Yeah, I got a degree. It’s called. It was a Bachelor of Arts in Visual Arts studio, which is basically more kind of kind of a non-commercial art side. It’s more like gallery or conceptual or music more museum E type. Or I don’t even wanna say museum. I don’t know. I don’t really like the distinction, so it’s hard to even describe that. II think that at at the time people would have said that it was more fine art, and I’m using air quotes there as opposed to commercial art.

MEAGAN- So you have been painting professionally, I could say for years.

Kirk- yeah, yeah, I probably sold my first. I mean, even when I was a teenager. I did sell a few little things at Oc. Ward auctions and things like that. But in terms of my adult hood, probably I began selling paintings. My guess is inSo the year before I graduated. So you know, at that this point that’s 24 years ago.

MEAGAN- Wow! That is amazing. So you are a very well known and dearly loved artist. and you have occupied, at least in recent years, a specific space and and that is the space that occupies our our Lgbtq plus loved ones, friends, siblings, family members.  faith, community members. This. Podcast I, I interview folks of all different faith backgrounds. And so I use. I try to use inclusive terms. Has your work always centered around that theme, or what would you say? Some of your your themes were earlier on in your. you know, even during your time as a student and and post-graduation.

Kirk- Yeah, II think that I don’t have anything that is really overtly Lgbtq and theme until a little bit later in my career. But I would say early on some of the things that I was interested in included feminism included kind of the poetry of religion. and when it conflicted with maybe, the dogma of religion, I would choose the the poetry. I would choose the mystery and the wonder rather than the surety.

MEAGAN- Yeah, for sure. The dogmatic, the Umhm black and white. Yeah. there’s so much symbolism. In what you do. and and the themes that you touch on, you know, as you’re talking, it’s not lost on me. You’re talking about feminism. You’re talking about the mystery, the beauty. and and from an artist’s point of view, that very much your profession. There’s there’s definite beauty to be found in in the shadows, in monochromatic work for sure in in darks and lights there’s beauty there but I think art would look very similar, very. There would be less diversity, I guess, if colors and specifically colors of the light spectrum were not introduced, and not a part of that work.

Kirk- Well, I’ll tell you something that I remember from what my days studying on the east coast with an artist called Patrick Devonis, and Patrick was a Latter Day Saint at the time, and he recounted to me a conversation that he had with one of his mentors or teachers. He he said that he was interested in and Patrick said that he wanted to help be part of kind of like a Latter Day Saint Art Renaissance, his teacher said. I’ll I’ll tell you what I why, I’m skeptical about that happening. And it’s because Latter-day Saints don’t want to paint the shadows. They only want to paint the light, and you really cannot  highlight the light without the shadows. So that’s something that’s always remain with me, and I’ve thought about quite a bit is The power of the light as it is demonstrated in contrast with the shadows, and how it’s part of a kind of a greater.

MEAGAN- Yes. that is beautiful. Yes. I feel that so deeply and actually. you know, the name of my podcast is beyond the shadow of doubt. And so you’re talking about shadows. You’re talking. They all. There’s a symbiotic relationship. There they they cannot exist, one without the other. So that’s just that is beautiful. Well, I could just sit here and talk to you about art for a long time.  I would love to know, or or I would love, if you could share more with us about what started to draw your your focus. your interest in  more, I guess. Recent years of painting literally the rainbow. And I know that is not the only theme that can be found in your artwork. but you know, for instance, at the gather conference you painted a tent that was clearly of rainbow colors. It was some a theme of the conference, enlarging, enlarging the tent of Zion. I believe. and I would just love to know more about how  you arrived to this point I remember asking you at the conference. if you also had a child who identified as LDBT. Q. Plus  many of the Lds. those of Lds faith background that I meet in this space. Thanks. This is early on, too. Have tears. But many of them have kids who are who identify somewhere in that

Kirk- yeah.

MEAGAN- And the queer space. And so  I’m always intrigued by  I recently had Jeff Anderson on the podcast  his Instagram account is the latter day Stonecatcher. He is an ally and in his words he doesn’t have a child who identifies as queer, at least not that he knows of yet. And so I would just love to know your kind of that back story there

Kirk- Yeah, I mean, I’m I’m in in a similar situation to him, and that I don’t have a a child that I’m aware of who has identified publicly or to me. Yeah, as Lgbtq. yeah. IA but II think I can trace it back to, you. Know some of my great friends growing up, and then my several of my mission companions. II later kind of came to know that they were gay and and I don’t know exactly. I can’t remember exactly when that happened, for who? For which? But I would say, generally speaking when Facebook came around and I started reconnecting with some of my, you know, some of these people from my past. You know I had one of my companions that I love dearly, that

When I reconnected with him on Facebook, he was married to his husband in Canada, and we had a good conversation about his relationship to the Church, and how he loves the Church and try, you know. stands up for it when given the opportunity, but also how there wasn’t a place for him, you know, in the church. So My! I think I wish I could say that I was way ahead of the curve, generally in America, but I think that I had to learn a lot just kind of like the general consciousness in the United States, learned a lot over the last 2 decades about the the situation of our Lgbtq. You know acquaintances and family members. And so as I got to interact more with these people from my past and and appreciate them for who they are and the beautiful lives that they’ve created over these years I just felt not threatened at all, you know, by by my gay former mission companions and friends from my childhood. And so that’s probably the the beginning of it. And then and then I was in a bishopric. I assume, if I need to clarify any of these terms. I don’t know if your audience is general, or if it’s

MEAGAN- yeah, sure Bishop Rick would be. You are a member of kind of the the primary leadership of of a ward which is like a congregation. So Bishop is like a pastor, and you were one of his advisors or counselors. So I was the first counselor. So basically, the you know first advisor to the to the head of the congregation.

Kirk- And this time Prop 8 in California was happening which was an effort to codify the illegality of yeah. okay of same-sex marriage in California. And I didn’t live in California. I lived in Utah. and there was a message that came down from upper leadership that we needed to be ready to mobilize our ward members to call people in California and encourage them to vote against the legalization of same-sex marriage. I can’t remember if it was already legal or not all I know II should get on the ballot at that point. Yeah. So I so I felt weird about that. I was like, do I do? Can I, in good conscience encourage my ward members to call Californians for this, you know, for this political thing that I disagreed with.

MEAGAN- Can I pause you for just a moment? Was that before or after you had started to reconnect with those from your like, you said your mission, or those from growing up where

Kirk- I assume that was after just trying to remember when Facebook was the thing, you know. I think when this happened

Meagan- it might have been right around the same time. Actually.

Kirk- it could have been. It could’ve been so. A. A. I. You know the. There were some videos posted on the church website describing the reasons for this initiative. And so I went through those. And I was really disappointed. I was. There was a video that said, we really need to fight same sex marriage, because if this passes, then we may be forced to serve these people in our businesses. And I just thought that is, that is horrible.

We should even we should be willingly serving them. even if that’s not part of our religious practice. Right? So I felt that I just felt that there was a lot of bigotry and a lack of inspiration behind that initiative. And so II don’t remember exactly how long after that. But I ruminated on that quite a bit I ended up moving, and so I was no longer in the bishopric.

Any. And and and at that point, too, I said, I’m not. I’m not going to. Fortunately we were never asked to actually start doing that, to start asking our award members to call California. But had that happened, I just I wouldn’t have, I wouldn’t have participated. so. and then again, I’m fuzzy on the timeline on this.

But in the years that in the years after that I began painting some images. One of them was an image that you have on your wall there. It’s called jesus said, Love everyone and it depicts Jesus in a multicolored robe and then, Rob, you see lots of people. and Jesus kind of has his arms wrapped around this big group of people, and and that image was kind of. I don’t know my web protest, I mean, the the title is comes from a beloved children’s hymn. But also, II admit there’s a bit of passive aggression there, and me naming it, that it’s just kind of holding up a mirror. You know, Jesus said, love everyone, and and and what are we doing? Are we? Are we living up to the basic principles that we learned when we were little children? Yeah, so that was kind of yeah behind that. and then around that time it might have been a little bit after it might have been slightly before I’d have to look at the years. But there was a a ho! A home that opened up in Provo called in Circle, and you’ve probably a lot of your listeners are familiar with it, but it is basically a place of support for Lgbtq. Youth teenagers can go there, hang out after school.

They have some counseling support as well. It’s meant to be a place when it when when I went and met with Stephanie, who started it before it even opened, she talked to me about how she wanted it to be kind of a home that that these kids could come to, and that there would be cookies baking in the oven that they would just feel like they were with family there, and so I was sure and I was able to do a painting for the front room of the encircle house that was there when it opened. and it depicts a family around a table with a child that a a and a rainbow overhead, so kind of a scene of of embracing and welcoming this LGBT. Family member and about that same time my nephew started attending or started visiting the house, and saw that painting that I had done and texted me, and it was like, Oh, I can! I can talk to my Uncle Kirk about this. So that was really encouraging to me that we were able to connect, that I was able to connect with my nephew at that time. So so like you, said II don’t have any children, but I’ve got that I’m aware of, but I I’ve got certainly a nephew who identifies as King, and there are. I’m sure I’ve got a very large family, so I’m sure over time.

MEAGAN- Well, statistically, one in 5 youth identify as LGBT. Q. Plus. And so, whether or not that individual has shared personally with you, or with or with any listener. You do know somebody who identifies as queer in some way.

Kirk- Yeah, absolutely. And so. And then over the years since then, you know, I’ve done quite a few different pieces with rainbows. I have a piece called We have a Rainbow House. Yes, II love that one and A, and it’s just a statement more than anything else. And it’s I think of it also as a symbol. For, like our community at large. we have where you know. that’s just a fact that we have a lot of Lgbtq family members and community members in our Miss End. So you know, let’s treat them well, you know. Let’s let’s do what we can to Be loving to all of our family, all of our community as much as possible.

MEAGAN- You know I love that we have a rainbow house. The word house is used to indicate a a domicile, a place where we live right in in our faith or any faith community. It’s often used to when we’re talking about the actual building, people will call it the Lord’s house.

Kirk- Yeah. Yeah. So the so we can apply that idea that we have Rainbow House to. We have a rainbow neighborhood. We have a rainbow church, you know. We’ve got everywhere to go. We have loved ones that policies and social norms are hostile to and that we can make changes to to be welcoming inclusive and really get side. Outside of our own limited experience. and really put into practice the Golden Rule. You know Jesus said, the and Mo. Mo. Almost all religions have some form of the Go Golden Rule that we want to treat others as we would like to be treated. In order. In order to do that, we have to

MEAGAN- open our minds to their experiences. Yes, absolutely. And for many you’re talking pretty openly. You’re you’re quite a ways along in in this journey, and I think it’s particularly I’ll use the word tricky. Perhaps challenging is also a word that could be used to describe. But for everybody internally, it’s it’s a little different what they experience. But whatever it is. certain things keep folks from expressing out loud whether it’s just in a one-on-one situation or in a group situation or you know, in a faith community type situation, whether or not that’s in the actual church building, right? These conversations can happen in their friend’s home, you know, at at a breaking bread over a meal going on a walk, whatever.

Ha! It’s not. It’s generally not something that folks feel comfortable talking about, especially when it goes contrary to what either they’ve been taught their understanding or what the general conversation is in their in their circles, in their world. We could say. Can you speak to that process as you have experienced it, and that and you may have to go back a few years again. I know you’ve it was. It was a while ago when you started to see. Wait a minute, this missionary companion. who I knew then, is still a beautiful soul now. and you said something very. You said I didn’t feel threatened at all. You you could see that he was living a life that was different. We could even say incongruent with what you had been teaching as missionaries. Right? But what is that process like for you? When you when you see something that is different. that you? Then you have been taught that you were raised with that maybe doesn’t make sense, or initially, you may not understand.

Can you share with our listeners what that is like for you, and what you kind of what you do to navigate that.

Kirk- So how I navigate it personally, or how I talk to other people about it, or

MEAGAN- how you that that internal process where you allow yourself? Oh, you acknowledge. Okay, you know what this is real like. I still love this mission companion of mine, and yet XY. And Z.  And you are left in one hand with A, and, in the other hand, B. And many, I think feel this expectation to choose either or and  because the alternative would be that then their considered no longer a believer, or they’re less than, or less faithful or There’s there’s shame attached with this doesn’t make sense to me. This I see these individuals, and they are III can find my eyes are open, they are in active pain. and I can no longer look away. And it’s just this process that a person goes through when they give themselves that permission to say, Yep, this is what’s going on. I can see this now. I didn’t before. and then to even take it a step beyond that and talk about it, even if it’s just one on one in the beginning. you know, and eventually I’ll use the word brave. Be brave enough or courageous enough to talk about it. You you mentioned how you were in a leadership position  around 2008 as the first counselor, the first advisor to the pastor of your congregation. and you were relieved that you weren’t. Ultimately we’re not asked to make those phone calls. Right?

Kirk- Yeah. Well. I would say, I would just start by saying that it doesn’t make sense all the time. There are many times when things haven’t made sense and I think that maybe it’s okay to acknowledge that church sometimes doesn’t make sense. Life sometimes doesn’t make sense and that even though life sometimes doesn’t make sense, it goes on. Yeah, people go on, communities go on. And and so being able to live with that discomfort is maybe a skill worth developing. And I can. You know, it’s like it’s easy for me to say that as someone who has many privileges that may maybe other people don’t.

But but that would where I pre is probably where I would start. I remember actually going. I was living with my in laws and and my wife’s family for a bit