Episode 90: I am finally me with Bree Borrowman Part 2

I would have occasion where I just. I needed to look like myself when I looked in the mirror. and I needed to feel like myself. and I would I would have that occasion, and I would dress up, and then I would feel horrible about the whole thing horribly wicked and simple and guilty, and I would throw it all away. then vowed never to do it again.

But even though you vow never to do it again, you’d you can’t do it. So you continue to hide. You’re you’re literally living life, hiding in secret and hoping nobody ever catches you when even when I was out of town and dressed, I always was looking over my shoulder, afraid that somebody that knew me would bump into me. and my whole life would fall apart. And so even then I just I lived in fear.

Yeah, kind of not too long ago, about 4 years ago.

I had occasion to meet with a priest leader. and

that priesthood leader had a laptop on their desk.

and they turned it around and showed me a picture of me. Oh, my goodness! Dressed up. they had found the picture I had taken and put on social media

7 years earlier.

MEAGAN: Oh, my goodness!

Bree- And they said, Is this you? And I said, No, it’s not me, you know.

MEAGAN: Oh, my goodness!

Bree- What I feared somebody, somebody! Somebody found my pitcher. and I said, No, it’s not me. And he said, Well, I think it is. And I said, No, it’s not. and he says, Well, I see it differently. I think this is you and

You need to explain this to me. And I said, Okay, it is me. But it’s 7 years ago

that pitcher’s 7 years old, and I’ve done my best to keep this under control for 7 years.

I was told that it was wicked.

that it was a sin

and that I had not confessed this to anyone, or properly repented of it, even though it had been 7 years ago.

and that I needed to repent. And I was not worthy of a temple recommend.

And so yeah. that started a new chapter in my journey.

I came home and had to tell my family why I didn’t have a temple recommend sorry, and not not having that recommend was the start of the new chapter in my journey.

It was pretty traumatic.

and I think the trauma is something that triggered me.

And one of the thoughts was, you know.

if I’ve been trying to do my best for 7 years keeping this under control. and that’s not good enough. I might as well be happy.

and that that kind of started this new chapter in my journey, where I wanted to know what it would be like if I

I was myself. and I started looking at what my life would be like if I was authentic.

regardless of how other people saw it, or whether it was right, and so it was. It was really traumatic that it kind of hit me that way.

So not not to leave that in such a negative tone.

MEAGAN: No, but it’s real. It’s your real story.

Bree- I have met with that priest leader since.

Our relationship has changed a hundred 80 degrees. Very loving, very caring, very supportive. apologized for that. Experience told me that they were wrong in the way they reacted.

So it’s been very good and I don’t know how this chapter of my life would have played out if that experience had played out differently in the beginning. But

if nothing else. I can look at it as a positive. because it put me in a position to start this part of my journey to get rid of shame and guilt and fear.

and all of that, and the the biggest part for me is

when I was living with all this shame and guilt. II knew I was an awful, horrible person.

and it it made it so. I built walls.

I built walls between me and everybody I knew, and I built walls between me and my Saviour, and I built walls between me, my heavenly parents. I knew they hated me.

I knew they just waited for me to die and judge me and send me to hell because I was awful and wicked.

And so II lost these relationships. and the beautiful part about this whole story

is finally getting to a point where I could get rid of that shame and that guilt.

and feeling that they hated me. and finding out that they really love me. That was the best part of the whole journey, and I’m so happy for that

I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t trade that

because II thought my Savior and my heavenly parents were just judgmental and vindictive.

But now I know that’s so wrong. They love me unconditionally, and I’m so happy to know that finally. and to have all those walls come down

and finally feel relationships in my life. It’s amazing. So I guess maybe I’m a little bit of a firecracker, because I finally feel alive.

Yeah, I feel like I’ve only been alive like 4 years since. So it’s like, Okay, I’ve got to experience my whole life just every single day.

And so just to finally have some spiritual connection, I mean, I tried my whole life

to have this spiritual connection by doing what I was supposed to do, what I was expected to do. and it it wasn’t the right thing for me.

I mean, if for others, if a works great but it didn’t work for me.

it it put me in a position where I had to build walls and separate myself because I felt so guilty.

and to finally to finally be at peace and feel whole, and to be able to take those walls down, because I realize they love me not. They hate me. It’s it’s been great to finally feel loved.

I think that’s the biggest part of it. I finally feel loved. and, of course, right. The best part of this is that amazing woman

that I found and married 43 years ago. She is the most amazing woman because she did fix me. She did heal me by being my greatest ally.

and giving me unconditional love

every day. I guess right. She did. She healed me. It took her a while. It took her about 43 years. But yeah, she healed me

by giving me unconditional love.

MEAGAN: Bree, it just breaks my heart so much that to know that somebody with your heart of

gold felt like you were a horrible evil person, and that could not be

further from the truth. I mean, if if you are

a horrible evil person, I mean the rest of us have 0 hope, you are one of the most kind. loving, compassionate, giving people I know.

and it’s just a shame that society

Bree- thanks, Megan. That means so much, you know. That’s that’s what shame and guilt does to you.

Shame and guilt are horrible drugs. They’re awful. They’re just. They’re a downward spiral.

and and I hope I hope. If there’s anything to learn from my experience. it’s that shaming and guilting people is the worst thing we can do to them.

It it, regardless of how you feel about someone else

to shame them. It it it just drives them down. That’s never from a place of love. No, it’s not. And you know. Even so, I remember a little. There’s a little thing I remember from scouts, and it always comes up. So many years ago I had a scout leader, and he gave me a bent nail.

and he said, I need you to keep this bent nail with you, and I’m like, why? And he says, well, because every time you look at this bent nail I want you to think about it. How would you straighten that bent nail out?

I’m like, well, it’s bent, you can’t.

And he said, Well, what would happen if you kept hitting it on the head? Well, you’d bend it some more, and he said, what if you turned it over and you patted it on the back?

He says you can straighten the bent nail by padding it on the back, not by hitting it on the head. How do we help people? We pat em on the back. not hit him on the head.

I’m like, yeah, I’ve remembered that my whole life. It’s like I just I wanna I wanna be able to pat people on the back and tell them they’re amazing and wonderful. And they’re loved.

So that’s all I need to do.

MEAGAN: That is a perfect segue to some.

a a question I would love to have you share about, and that is.

what would your suggestions be for those who are looking

to make safer spaces, whether that be in their homes.

whether that be in their communities, civic communities, faith communities.

perhaps even. you know, employment or work communities. How

how can we create safer spaces? And in this case, particularly for trans. Individuals?

Bree- Thanks for the question, and oh, wow! II wish I had just the pat answer that I could just put it out there and say, this is the answer to everything.

But some things that I’ve noticed.  I think

I think most of the time in my experience. If there’s ever been a confrontation. It’s because of the lack of understanding and it’s it’s also because of the lack of wanting to understand.

I found that it’s really helpful for me.

When someone has a difference of opinion. it’s been helpful for me to ask them to explain their difference of opinion to me.

Help me understand? Or would you please explain to me why you feel that way?

I want to understand you. and why you feel that way

that opens up a channel for communication, not, you know, shuts the door

with well, I don’t agree with your opinion at all, and you’re wrong.

That’s that doesn’t open communication, and that leads to further misunderstanding. I think.

trying to understand each other, and why we feel the way we do is helpful.

I think. you know, developing. If I could have everyone develop an attitude of openness to being willing to try and understand other people.

We’re all on a journey. And again, we’re we’re all different.

We all come from all different walks of life, all different backgrounds. It’s a huge spectrum.

and I found that it’s wonderful to celebrate diversity.

not shut it down and say that we should all be alike and be the same.

I think what I found helps open up safe spaces. You know it’s kinda hard for me to go around and just say, Hey, anybody that identifies with gender incongruent? Here I am.

But you know I noticed like on your on your nightstand or your end table right there. You’ve got the little plaque with a rainbow on it.

you know. If I were a rainbow pen. When I’m out in public. I have people comment on it. They’re like, Oh, hey! I see your PIN. Thanks for wearing that.

You know it just just little things that we can do that will just show people that you’re a safe space. and the more safe spaces we can create the better. But again

you know, for me, just trying to understand others. If I if I’m in a situation where I feel that someone

is is a little bit. They’re they’re not

understanding or compassionate of others. Feelings.

It’s just really been helpful for me to say, you know. Well, explain to me, help me understand why it is you feel the way you do. I want to understand you.

and almost every time it leads to them wanting to understand me. Oh, well, tell me how you feel. Oh, thank you, that’s all I needed to know. Cause now let me tell you how I feel.

and it opens the dialogue.

and until we’re willing to talk to each other until we’re willing to get to know each other, it. It’s kind of hard to create those safe spaces.

II love a quote by Brene Brown. She always says people are hard to hate. Close up. Move in.

That’s the important part of it. Move in the closer you get to somebody, the harder it is to hate them, you know. If you really really know somebody really well, it’s it’s hard to hate them.

cause you get to know them. And you’re like Whoa! They’re they’re not at all like I thought they were. You let the humanity in.

And it’s it’s wonderful to celebrate that. I think it’s the other thing that I’ve noticed in this part of my journey in this

part of this chapter. It’s been very helpful for me as well. because I used to, I admit shamefully, I used to just follow along some of those conservative lines.

I would see a homeless person on the street, and my first thought was, go get a job. stop just begging for food and money on that corner. You you go get a job.

Well, you know now that I see myself in a different light. and I see my Savior and my heavenly parents in a different light. I can truly understand that my Saviour, my heavenly parents, love them.

and they’ve asked me to love them and to see people in a different light, no matter what walk of life.

no matter what their experience is, no matter what they’re dealing with or living. I can. I can see them differently, and I

I love that I love to be able to look at people and see them for their potential, to see the light in their eyes.

and to be able to to offer compassion and support.

And you know I see a homeless person now, and it’s like, what can I do to help you?

How can I help? You? Have a better day, not go get a job. And I really appreciate that. I love just being able to see people for who they are

maybe a little bit how Christ sees us.

MEAGAN: Yeah, for sure. That’s that’s so beautiful. I appreciate that so much.

  you know, in a  I think the whole world could use a little bit more of

looking through that type of a lens.

Bree- Definitely.

MEAGAN: II appreciate so much the time you’ve taken. II just wanna

give you the opportunity to share. You know.

November twentieth is transgender day

of remembrance. and if you wouldn’t mind, just take a few moments

share. Why, that is an important day to have to you.

Bree-  thanks for the question, I appreciate it it is it is a difficult day.

I’m I’m happy that there’s some effort

that there’s some recognition for the transgender day of remembrance.  And

II honor that as best I can. I think it hits home to me so hard.

because

I know my journey has been different than so many.

I consider myself so fortunate that I am in this part of my journey that this part of my transition in life has been 98, 99% positive.

I just I am just so happy for that.

but it makes me so sad.

and it really hits home when I think of other people that have had it so different.

The thought of someone living in the threat of violence for just trying to be themselves.

It’s just so disheartening to me. I just.

I don’t know it. I don’t understand that experience because I haven’t had to live it.

And it’s just so hard for me. It’s like it’s not. It’s not that hard to to treat people with compassion

and kindness. and to threaten somebody to have someone experience physical violence

for just trying to be themselves. I don’t get that.

They’re not hurting someone else. They’re not hurting you. They’re not for somebody to physically harm another person who is just trying to live their life.

I don’t. I don’t understand that so. and I feel really sad that my experience has been so positive, and there are others that it’s been

so much the opposite.

and my heart goes out 2, those that we honor and commemorate on the day of remembrance. It’s sad that we have people who have lived

with a violent situation just because they’re dealing with gender incongruence or dysphoria.

And again, it’s the lack of understanding

that somebody we just don’t understand what somebody’s dealing with

when when they experience this incongruence and dysphoria, and rather than open up the the lines of communication and try and understand.

we shut it down. But I don’t understand how resulting the violence

is anyway the right thing to do. And so

yeah. Next Monday, on the twentieth it will be.

It will be a difficult day, but I honor and commemorate those who have suffered at the hands of someone else

because of their identity, who they feel like they really are.

So. interesting little experience. I have a flag pole in front of my house. Always have.

and I fly a a flag. Either the Us. Flag, or sometimes I put up the Union Jack.

and then below that I’ll fly another flag, and a lot of times it’s a pride flag. So I’ve had the pride flag up until the start of this week. So on Monday I took it down, and instead of the pride flag I put up a trans flag.

So we’re at home, and in the middle of the day the doorbell rings, and we’re like, Well, who’s that? Not expecting any visitors?

It’s a neighbor that lives a couple streets over.

stopped and rang the doorbell, and just said, Hey, I just wanted to stop by and tell you I appreciated you flying the pride flag. but I noticed you changed it to day. What is that flag?

And we said, Well, that’s the trans flag. and he says, Oh, I don’t know anything about that.

So right that was a good start. That was a really good start to my transgender week of awareness. So we’ve we’ve got a neighbor who we now have contact information with.

And yeah, we’re we’re gonna get in touch in the future, we hope and talk. And the interesting thing about this. so just shared a little bit of his story, and why he appreciated

that I had a pride flag up as he’s in a same sex relationship.

But it’s really interesting that I mean, and it’s true.

He he’s in a same sex relationship identifies as gay. But he says to me, I don’t know anything about. Trans. Wow. And I said, Well, that’s very true. I know

II don’t know what it’s like to be gay. I don’t know what it’s like to experience life with a same sex attraction.

Well, although I guess I do, cause I’m female, and I’m married to get so. But anyway, it it’s and for

someone else who experiences same-sex attraction. They don’t. They don’t understand. They don’t know anything about what it’s like to experience gender incongruent. And so it’s like, yeah, let’s open up those lines of communication leave. Even in the Lgbtq community.

We we need to talk, and we need to understand each other’s experiences and share. And anyway, it was a good start to the week. So I hope it’s a positive week.

And yeah, I’ll make it through the twentieth as best I could, and my heart goes out to those people, their family, their loved ones.

those who have suffered at the hands of someone else, an act of violence because of their identity. I just think that’s so sad.

MEAGAN: I appreciate your candidness and your openness. I know you’re speaking from the heart, and

I do know, Bri, you’re doing immense good in this space by being so willing to be open with your story. I know I’m not the first podcast interview you’ve had. And I know you speak to groups on a regular basis.

And so you are using your position for so much good and so much showing, just so much love, and extending an olive branch in in many places where. honestly. I it would be understandable if you chose not to because of.

but you have experienced in your life, and so I thank you so so much for for sharing your wisdom. 1 one final question I always like to ask

my guests, you know my, my podcast’s name is beyond the shadow of doubt purposely dropped

the A growing up in a conservative faith. You! There’s this shame attached with having questions and and having doubts, and I’m

I’m here to dispel that and and normalize faith journeys, and that they’re all different. and that questions and doubts actually help us refine our our belief.

and so my my question for you is, you know, what does it mean to you to live beyond the shadow of doubt?

Bree- Well, thanks, Megan, for the question again, and you know, there’s a lot to that, just like everything else to live beyond a shadow of a doubt. There could be a lot of things to that

and II think you know, as I mentioned, it depends on where you are in your transition in life.

It’s a spectrum, and it keeps changing. It depends on which chapter of the book you’re writing. But to me what it for me right now, at this part of my journey.

for me to be living beyond a shadow of a doubt is to know that I am unconditionally loved regardless.

And that just I don’t. I don’t have doubt. I don’t have doubt in what, in what I do every day. I don’t have doubt in who I am.

I don’t have doubt in how I behave each day, or what I do, because no matter what happens during the day, no matter how the day goes.

no matter how what experiences I have. I know of unconditional love.

and I know that from different sources. But most importantly. I know that from a divine source, whatever it is that I perceive

as Deity. or God, or my heavenly parents, or my Saviour, whatever that is.

and and that changes, too, that that goes through transition in our lives. But whatever that is, whatever I perceive as divine.

I know that divine entity loves me unconditionally.

and so I don’t have doubt. II don’t need doubt when I know when I know that that divine entity, that I

have faith in, not belief in faith.

and you know the faith of the grace of my Savior. I

I don’t. I don’t have doubt. I don’t doubt that’s a beautiful way to live such a and I and and II can relate that I guess a little bit, because

it just feels like I was in a dark room. totally black, totally dark. And now the light’s on

and it’s such a contrast to go for my life before. with all that shame and guilt and fear.

to suddenly have a light go on and fill alive, and not deal with that. It it it erases doubt.

the light, and the unconditional love I feel II don’t doubt anymore.

one of my first experiences I had I met a friend at a conference

and walked in the door. And I I will love this person forever. grabbed me in a big hug and said, I don’t know what brought you here. but everything will be okay.

And I think that’s part of how I live. Without a doubt everything will be okay.

I regardless because of unconditional love and just

wipe out. It’ll be okay, it will I?

MEAGAN: That’s great. That’s that’s a perfect note, too. to put a little tiny little bow on this lovely conversation.

you inspire me. I’m first person to tell you that, but you are very inspiring.

so I I’d like to offer my listeners chance to get to know my guests. I just have a few quick questions. I’m just looking for one word responses just for them to tell you.

So tell us, okay, what your favorite book is.

Bree- This’ll be fun.

MEAGAN: Yes. Tell us what your favorite book is.

Bree- Favorite book. huh!

That’s hard because it changes right now. Favorite book right now. faith, after DOE.

MEAGAN: That’s a great one. I love that one. Okay, are you an introvert or an extrovert.

Bree- Oh, extrovert!

MEAGAN: Yeah, I could have guessed that favorite artist surprise. Who is your favorite artist?

Bree-  Do you mean painting or music? Or

MEAGAN: you pick

Bree-  I’m not so much into painting or artwork. I’m more into music. I’m gonna say, a a jazz group

known as the Rippingtons. That is a verse. Yeah, I’m I’m into jazz. Always have been my whole life, and most people don’t have a clue. Who I listen to.

MEAGAN: That’s awesome.

Okay, are you a night owl or a morning lark?

Bree- More a night owl.

MEAGAN:  and do you do still, or carbonated water? Or do you do diet soda?

Bree- I let’s say diet soda, probably more than waters,

MEAGAN: because you’re a cyclist, I was thinking, no, she’s definitely gonna say, still water.

Bree- No, I’ve actually learned that a little caffeine and a little sodium bicarb is helpful after a bike ride.

Well, there. Oh, yeah, anyway, soda like that.

MEAGAN: Do you have a celebrity crush.

Bree- Celebrity! Crush!  wow! That’s a tough one.

I don’t. May I know

MEAGAN: you can say no.

Bree- I’ve had. I think I think maybe because I’ve met a a good number of celebrities.

and they’ve always been disappointing.

So it’s like, Do I? Do I really wanna meet any more of them? I don’t know.

MEAGAN: Oh, my gosh! That’s funny.

Bree- II have met quite a few celebrities, and I there’s been very few of them that I thought it was a good experience. They’re very human. They’re people, too. If if I thought about it for a while, I could maybe come up with one don’t need to. Okay.

MEAGAN: And then, lastly, the for this place you have travelled

Bree- furthest place I’ve traveled.

wow!

Europe, South America.

I don’t know which ones further. Quite a few places. That’s I’ve been around a little bit.

MEAGAN: Yeah, that’s fine.

Well, Bree, if folks had questions for you or wanted to reach out to you, what would be the easiest way for them to do that?

Bree- Oh, boy, I love it when people reach out. That’s so fun. Because, you know, honestly, I really feel like there was a reason that this happened to me.

and it’s so. I could be an advocate and an ally for others. So I love it when people reach out. Best way to get a hold of me. Bree Borrowman.

just my name

Reborom in a Gmail. And you can email me. And that’s I welcome any email, anybody that wants to reach out. II love it when I get to meet new people. So

MEAGAN:  yes, I can attest to that. You are so friendly and open. And yeah, thank you. You are so good at what you do as an advocate and an ally. So

thank you.

It’s been such an honor to get to chat with you, Bree. Thank you for sharing. I really appreciated it.

Bree- Well, thanks, Megan, I really appreciate you inviting me to be on? I like, I say, I just I’m I feel like this is what I was.

Why, why, this happened, what I’m meant to to do, and so, having the opportunity to share, and having the opportunity to reach out and again be an advocate and ally for others, I really hope

that maybe because of my experience.

no one else has to live with shame and guilt and doubt for 50 years of their life, like I did. It shouldn’t happen

so if I can be supportive or helpful, or an ally or advocate in any way. But I love to do it. That’s that’s what I. That’s why I’m here. That’s this part of my journey. That’s this chapter. So

yeah, please feel free to reach out, and thanks for the opportunity to be with you.

MEAGAN: I love getting to know you a little better, so thank you so much.

Bree- Thank you so much.