Episode 227: I cherish mystery now with Venice Jardine, M.A.

Hey everyone, welcome to today’s episode of Living Beyond the Shadow of Doubt. I am so grateful for this space that I have carefully and intentionally cultivated over the past few years because it gives me the opportunity to have such meaningful and often profound conversations. And I’m really looking forward to that today.

And I’m excited to welcome my guest, Venice Jardine, on today. So welcome, Venice.

Thank you, very happy to be here.

Ditto, I’m very, very happy you’re here as well. Venice and I met for the first time earlier this year, 2025. It was at an event that was sponsored by That’s Church podcast, Emily and Ashley, who are sisters. And it was the International Women’s Day celebration. And there were four presenters, you were one of them, and I was just so, each one of you presented something different. And I was so moved by each one of those.

Mm-hmm.

Okay, I got a message. Do you see me now? Okay. All right, Michael, just make sure this part gets cut out. I was—my video stopped. Thank you. So at this event, the International Women’s Day celebration, there were four presenters, and you were one of them. And I was really moved by what each one of you shared, and they were all different.

Hahaha

And none was for sure something, the space that I have created and in some ways I have felt thrust into, I’ll say invited, but often I feel I was thrust into it is one that is very not black and white. And each of your presentations, each of your remarks were very much not black and white. Very much colorful, very much expansive, inviting all of those in the room to bigger, deeper, more expressive faith, more expressive on an individual level of the things that are most meaningful to us and most profoundly touch us on our, you know, on a spiritual level, a almost transcendent level, one that’s hard to put into words.

So with that, I would love for you to take a moment to introduce yourself to our listeners. Just share with us all the things that you would like to share, particularly those that have contributed to where you are at now. What the point in your journey that you’re at today.

Yeah. Well, I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I was born to parents who were members of the church. I grew up in the church, and it was so good for me. It was everything I needed, and gave me a really solid foundation of spirituality and morals that have guided me throughout my whole life. But I wasn’t raised in a very traditional family. My parents were divorced when I was six years old. I was raised by my single mom and really my single grandma. I only had sisters. So it was all of us women and our female dog.

Okay.

And I was raised in southern Utah in Cedar City, which is a pretty working class area, pretty conservative area, but my family was not very conservative. so in some ways I was always raised with a little bit of that tension, but I don’t know that I necessarily saw it as tension.

Mmm.

It just felt normal to me in a lot of ways. And I think in some ways maybe I was shielded from some of the, because my mom was a single mom, I think I was shielded maybe from some of the messages about…

Interesting.

…you know, women should do. I don’t know. I just didn’t experience that growing up. That wasn’t part of my growing up. So really I just kind of had this idealistic version of the church in my head because my experience in the church was so life-giving to me. But as I got older, especially in college…

huh. huh.

And especially as the church kind of doubling down on its stance on LGBTQ issues, that’s when I really started to feel a lot of tension in my faith. And, you know, there was a lot of stuff I could maybe explain away or use apologetics for for a while, but I think especially after I…

huh.

Yeah, just as I got older in college, even into me after college getting married, it really kind of hit its peak where I felt like I couldn’t, I didn’t have any more answers. I couldn’t explain things way anymore. And for a while I just dealt with the tension and I think there’s a lot of value in that tension. But I think I got to a certain point where I felt like I had to make a decision, should I stay in the church or should I go? Because these values were so in conflict with one another. And this was probably around the pandemic time.

When was this?

Okay.

Looking back, I think I realized part of it was that I wasn’t around the community of the church because it was during the pandemic. think a lot of people experienced sort of a faith crisis or some type of transition of their faith during the pandemic. And I do think that that’s a big part of it is the community wasn’t as present. And really, it was it was sort of an agonizing time. There was a lot of angst. I was angry about a lot of things. I struggled with a lot of things. And really ultimately there were a lot of different experiences, a lot of spiritual experiences that I had, and a lot of experiences with other people that helped me feel very supported, very not alone in feeling the way that I did.

Mm-hmm.

If there was one moment that like changed things it was really just having this very like in-depth conversation with my husband, you know, where we were talking about like, okay, if I did leave, what would that mean? What would that mean for us? What would that mean for our families? How would I tell your mom? You know, like what would that look like? And he was so incredibly supportive and loving. And I get a little emotional every time I talk about it. But he just at one point, you know, looked me in the eye and said, it would be hard for me if you left church but I would not feel differently about you. I would still love you. And I think something about that made me realize like, okay if I stay I’m not doing it out of fear of what the consequences would be if I left. And once I knew that I wasn’t staying out of fear it opened up a lot of possibilities to me about the way I could think about it and really I just realized I want to stay. I’ve had all of these spiritual experiences. This is where God wants me. This is where I want to be. These are my people. This is the best way that I know this. I can do so much good by staying in the church.

Yeah, I feel very passionate about this topic. feel very good about my decision to stay in the church. I value the church so much and it’s a huge part of my life, a huge part of my identity. And also it’s not black and white. And there are people who leave the church out of a place of integrity. I stayed in the church out of a place of integrity, but there are a lot of different decisions people make. ultimately this felt like so amazing to me in this new way of thinking about the world and, you know, even praying for guidance. basically got this prompting that I should go to grad school. As my undergrad, I studied psychology and anthropology. I felt like I should go back to grad school and get a master’s in anthropology. anthropology is the study of peoples and cultures. the culture I studied was Latter-day Saints. And I specifically studied Latter-day Saints who stay in the church despite these tensions, despite disagreeing with some aspects of the church or its teachings, and why people stay and how people stay.

And I think I thought like, well, I’ve experienced this. I know what works. I’m going to find a bunch of people just like me who have experienced the same thing as me and who have the exact same outlook on life as me. And it’s going to be amazing. And then we’re going to help a lot of people be able to stay in the church if that’s what they want, you know, like, but really what I found is that there is a huge spectrum and it really changed the way that I think about the church again. There are people who are atheists who stay in the church. There are people who, you know, all across the spectrum, there are tons of people for a lot of different reasons who stay in the church. And it was just such a beautiful experience getting to know these people and hearing their stories and just how different they all are. I didn’t find a lot of people who had the exact same situation as I did, but I found…

Really?

…a lot of connection with all of these people who have had such different experiences, who think about things so differently. But we’re all here. We’re all this like ragtag group of people staying in the church and trying to do good in the world.

Yeah, you’ve said some really, really fascinating and wonderful things. And I don’t know where to start to dive a little deeper.

haha

Let’s start here. You mentioned in college is when this tension for you personally really started to increase. That’s when you really started to feel it as you said. it was particularly, you mentioned LGBTQ+ issues. I didn’t get the feeling that that was the only one, but you did mention that one. You did mention that one.

Mm-hmm.

No, certainly not. Yeah.

And that resonates with me deeply, being the parent of a queer child. I would love to know, or if you feel comfortable sharing, what some of those specific things were. And one of the reasons I think my interest has peaked, it’s a personal interest, yes, because the… I’ll just call them issues. I don’t know what else to call them. It doesn’t quite feel fair to call them issues, but concerns, issues surrounding this topic, they’ve not gone away. And my child in particular identifies as transgender, and for them it has been particularly more pointed. With the recent, I don’t know if you heard about the Supreme Court…

Yeah.

…cases that the church submitted some briefs to and that was just this past weekend. And then a year ago, the updates to the handbook. There’s a lot of activity still around this issue that I personally know quite a few individuals who are transgender and or non-binary that have, they’ve had to step away because they literally do not feel like they are welcome.

Yeah.

So I’m curious to know kind of what was it about that issue that pricked at your heart or that was troubling or that you said that you really started to feel them.

Yeah, well I think, I mean growing up I was friends with a lot of LGBTQ people but at the time I didn’t know they were LGBTQ, you know. So I just don’t think it was as present in my awareness, I guess. But in college, you know, I had a lot of friends who were LGBTQ.

Mm-hmm.

That’s great.

No.

And yeah, during that time was also when the church… the policy about children of gay couples not being able to be baptized. And that was also when gay marriage was legalized. It felt like one thing after another where the church was speaking out about these issues in ways that felt wrong to me.

In 2015, 10 years.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

You know, I had a lot of gay friends. remember at one point one of my gay friends called me at night when the news broke about, I think it was about the children of gay couples not being able to be baptized and he was just like crying to me. And I didn’t know what to say. I felt so, I felt heartbroken, I felt angry, I didn’t know. I wished that I could give him an answer for why it made sense, but it didn’t make sense. And you’re absolutely right. The truth is we have not done well enough as a community at this point to create a space where all members that are LGBTQ can stay. And a lot of that is because of teachings and policies that are in place. But a lot of it is because of us, because of the way that we deal with these brothers and sisters of ours. And so the…

Hmm.

During that time there were just quite a few things that happened that really kind of turned up the pressure for a lot of people. And for me internally it turned up the pressure as well where I just realized like this is hurting people. I was watching people I loved be hurt and I’ve always been very spiritual, have had a very close relationship and connection to God and I couldn’t quite square the God that I knew and understood with some of the teachings and policies that were in place. And I really think a big turning point for me was being able to just say, I disagree. I disagree with the church, you know.

Mm-hmm.

Tell me more about that. Like, is that something you said out loud? Or, I mean, was it something you wrote in your journal? Just, you know, saying it to yourself, acknowledging it to yourself? Did you share it with family or loved ones? Like, I think that’s a really big deal. Like, I love that you are saying and sharing that right here, right now. Because that’s important. Because that means you are listening to your intuition and by hearing it and acknowledging it, then that strengthening that relationship so that the next time it’ll like you’ll recognize it even more, right? It’s a process, of course, but you had to trust yourself.

Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yes and that was it was difficult for me. I don’t even know that it was a process for sure. I think at first it was just between me and myself and then it was between me and God and then it was I said it out loud to a few people or I asked questions to a few people and I just I think I tried to ride the line for a while you know. You know, apologetics are kind of helpful with that. They can help you give other perspectives to say like, well, here’s why it makes a little bit of sense or something like that. But, but ultimately, I distinctly remember there was a time that I heard a friend say something similar that she disagreed. And it was this big moment for me where I was like, I can, I can say that I can say that. And I really think that was even modeled to me. My Mom is an incredibly faithful person and she, you know, all throughout growing up, you know, she disagreed with some of the church’s stances and policies on things. But even so, I just think I was a young person thinking in black and white terms is honestly healthy, you know, at a certain age. It’s just part of being human. But it did feel scary to admit. Because it felt like if I admitted that I disagreed, then maybe everything would unravel, which wasn’t actually the case. The entire church does not unravel if you disagree. And yeah, at a certain point, you just realize the logical conclusion is to disagree—that you can’t, I mean there have been so many conflicting teachings throughout church history. It’s normal and it’s okay and it is an act of faith, I would say, to disagree with even some of the party stances. You know, it’s an act of faith to be able to say, I disagree and that doesn’t mean that I don’t believe in these bigger visions.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Uh-huh.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that’s one of the things I have learned through this journey of mine that I’m six and a half years into now is that the opposite of faith isn’t doubt, it’s certainty. And there’s no way to have 100% certainty.

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Some people I think have convinced themselves that they can have 100% certainty in their life. But I haven’t found that to be true. And I’ve actually found it to be more healthy for me to lean into and even embrace uncertainty, be able to exercise that faith. Like, you know what? I know a lot less now than I used to think that I knew, right?

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

And I’m okay with that. Being able to just step into that space of, I’m not really certain. There’s some things that I realize are quite unknown for me at this stage. And that is okay. I can hold space for that. I can actually find peace often in knowing I don’t, there are certain things that I used to think that I knew with absolute certainty that I don’t any longer and that actually brings me peace. The word AND also brings a lot of peace. think AND helps us get away from the black and the white thinking. We can forget that this can be true and this can also be true.

Yes.

down.

Yes.

Two seemingly opposing or contradictory things can be simultaneously true.

Yes.

And, well, there I’m using and. And I think a part of my journey in some ways was like, I guess I don’t know anything. I guess everything is meaningless. If you can go to the other extreme as well and say no one knows anything, there, you know, nothing has meaning. But that, I would not say that that is wisdom.

Uh-huh.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

For me, I think that was maybe a part of my journey that I needed to go through. But now I’m able to say, I don’t know much, honestly. However, I do think there is wisdom in hanging your hat somewhere and saying, I don’t know a lot, but I believe this is where goodness is. And I’m going to follow that. I think there is wisdom in not throwing the baby out with the bath water. I… Yeah, there are very few things now that I would say I know this is true. But I feel the image I have in my head is that like I have my beliefs, I’m holding my beliefs in my hand. I hold them a lot less tightly now. I’m not holding them in such desperation.

Good luck.

home

And when I have, when I hold them, I’m still holding the beliefs that I have. But when I’m not doing it so desperately, actually more can be added. More can be added to what I’m already holding. And if something does fall, I am able to be curious about it rather than feeling like everything is crashing down.

Yeah, that’s the hidden or the not obvious blessing of not being so hard and fast, like gripping your beliefs, I think you used gripping or grasping.

Mm.

gripping was a better word. Thank you. That was good.

But, well, no, same concept, because then I think that’s what was so devastating for me in the beginning of this journey. It literally felt like an earthquake had ravaged through our home, but we were the only ones hit because of the meaning that I had placed on what this meant for our family and the meaning that I had placed on what it meant for me and my goodness as a person, a parent, as a believer or whatever, I’m no longer in that place. That place is very far in my past. But I don’t know if you shared that day in March or not, but I wasn’t expecting you to share that there was a time you were deciding whether to stay or not. Because if I’m honest, these issues that are so fresh and happening right now are putting people, those who identify as transgender and non-binary and their families in a place of trying to find where they feel loved, where they feel welcome, where they can feel the love of God. I really appreciate you saying…

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

You said you stayed, you decided to stay in the end. I stayed out of a place of integrity and there are others who leave out of a place of integrity.

Yes. Yeah.

Not everybody feels that generous in how you are phrasing that. It’s actually really beautiful because you are, that is the type of inclusive space I think that is needed, the type of non-judgmental space that congregations could really benefit from instead of “You must be a certain way or else you’re not one of us.”

Mm.

Yeah.

Yes.

I mean, as you were talking, thought, gosh, every congregation needs a Venice.

I every congregate, and I guess that’s the thing is, you can be, I mean, I’m not trying to say you can be the Venice, but I just mean each of us has influence within our community. And you can be the person in your ward that welcomes someone who’s transgender. And you can even be honest with them and say like, I worry that people in this ward might treat you differently, but I need you to know that I won’t. And I’m going to be here to stick up for you if someone says something.

But really, mean, the incredible thing about our faith community, even in the social sciences world, Latter-day Saints are often held up as like the standard of communities, of religious communities. There are a lot of things that make our communities unique and that we do well. You know, put a, we have rich people and poor people in the same ward. We don’t choose our pastors. We don’t choose our bishops based on who we agree with the most. We don’t choose our congregations based on where our friends are going and who we like best. You’re put into community with people who are different from you. So really this is, this is a strength of our community and also there is a lot more that we need to work on.

But, and it can be so easy to feel very hopeless. But every person in the ward community has some influence, whether it’s making a comment in Sunday school, whether it’s sitting by someone who’s feeling lonely, whether it’s giving yourself a calling in the ward to, you know, do whatever it is to support as you’re doing to support families who have a queer child. There are so many things that we can do within our sphere of influence.

But I also just want to say, if there’s anyone listening to this who really is just in the thick of it, I see you and you’re not crazy. And this is so difficult. This is so difficult. think, especially at the peak of all of that angst for me, it was genuinely one of the most difficult periods of my life. I didn’t know if everything that I had based my life on, if I just did it by mistake or if I made it up or was crazy. I felt really alone and Really, I just, I don’t want anyone to ever have to feel like that. I just, yeah, so I just want to say like to anyone who is experiencing that, I see you. And there are lots of us who can walk with you through it.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

home.

I appreciate it. I really appreciate your openness around this topic. And I appreciate that you do see yourself as one in your congregation who will stand next to you and stand up for those who are marginalized and discriminated. And I agree, each congregation needs someone who can do that. And there are those, myself included, who tried to for a while. I, for my own mental health and my own integrity, I have stepped back from regular participation because it just wasn’t healthy for me. And so I think hearing this come from someone who, maybe I shouldn’t assume, but who is an ally, who isn’t necessarily a parent of, you know, a queer, transgender, non-binary child. that’s, those are the folks that if enough of them started to speak up and speaking up can just be, you can sit by me. You can use whatever bathroom you would like. You can come with me to this activity. I love you. I want you there. I see you.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just like you just said, I think the more that people would feel like step into that bravery, step into that courage, then maybe fewer non-binary transgender folks and their families would be stepping away. Because this is our lives. These are our people. These are our loved ones. And these decisions are not taken lightly.

Yeah. Yes.

Like you’ve shared, you did not take it lightly at all. It was excruciating. It’s excruciating for me now. But when these briefs were filed to the Supreme Court just last week, where the church spearheaded the effort and urges the Supreme Court to reject transgender status as a protected class, arguing it would limit religious freedom and is essentially asking the court to prioritize that religious freedom policy, what have you, over the transgender individual rights. Like, that’s heartbreaking as a parent. Hopefully it’s heartbreaking for any human being, but that’s… That is not a small issue. That is not a decision that’s taken lightly by anybody.

I did not foresee this conversation going here, but I really appreciated you sharing so openly about your journey. I wish more people could see that and feel that and we could just normalize. It might be a part of your journey, whoever might be listening. And that’s okay. There’s no shame in that. Zero.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

I mean, when you look at yourself prior to, you know, that time period when you engaged in such that, that difficult struggle, wrestle, and the growth that you have experienced since then and who you are now. I mean, I would venture to say you’re a very different person, even though I didn’t know you, but I understand the nature of the wrestle.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I certainly think about things differently. And I wouldn’t go back. And there are cycles in life, and even still, I find myself at certain points of the cycle. And hopefully, I keep growing.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

And who knows, in 10 years I might look back again now and feel like I think about things incredibly differently than how I do now. But yeah, but thank you for sharing that too. I mean, I really do just feel very passionate about. Yeah, just normalizing being open about our struggles.

At church, the best—mean, I don’t want to throw all elders quorums under the bus or anything like that. But my husband goes to church and on Sundays when the men meet together and the women meet together. The men don’t usually have as great of an experience as the women do. And we’ve talked about, my husband and I talk about this a lot, trying to dissect like, what is the difference? And really the difference is that the women treat it as a support group and it’s very much like open and vulnerable and “I’m struggling” and “my family is struggling and I don’t know what to do about this” and like, “sometimes I just worry that I’m ruining my kids,” and everyone’s like sharing openly. And those are the best Sundays when people can be very open and vulnerable.

Oftentimes in the men’s group it’s a little bit more of a… “Well, technically this doctrine is correct because this great…” you know? So that is not always as productive of an experience. Like arguing over doctrine is not always as productive as an experience as really supporting each other in a support group. And really it just takes one person and you’ve clearly done that with your podcast. You have been open and vulnerable and created this space where people can share their stories and feel supported and that is worth its weight in gold. It really just takes one person to open up and be vulnerable to give everyone else permission to also be vulnerable.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I 1,000% agree with that. I think we have this idea of being a leader all wrong. I read something on social media recently. I don’t know who to give credit to, but basically being a leader doesn’t mean you have followers behind you. Like you have this already built in place support. Being a leader means you go first. And that is what—like that’s what you’re doing. That’s what the other women who spoke that night in March of this year are doing. And yes, in some ways I feel like I have gone first in the spaces that I have created. And it’s scary in the beginning, especially in the beginning. And if we can just normalize that.

Mm. Yeah.

Mm, yeah.

It’s very scary. It’s very brave.

You know what? We might sound like we’re having a conversation. Video keeps freezing. Okay, cut that part out. We’re almost done here.

Hehehe. Hehehe.

I totally forgot what I was—my train of thought. What were we saying about? Leading. If we can even even though you and I are having this conversation right now. I mean my heart’s feeling it. Sometimes my heart is beating

little faster because there’s a little bit of that adrenaline when you are being vulnerable. But on the other side of that, it’s just like you said: it’s worth its weight in gold. Because that is where the connection is. That’s where we realize we’re not alone. And that’s where the healing, I think, really happens.

I agree. And I think that’s why people stay. They stay for those moments of connection and they stay for the healing that they find. Even if it’s not perfect. Even if it’s messy.

Yes. It is messy. And that’s okay.

Well, Venice, I can’t thank you enough for being here today and for sharing your journey and your heart with us. I know this is going to resonate with so many people who are navigating their own “middle space” or their own tensions. So, thank you.

Thank you so much for having me. It’s been a pleasure.

And to our listeners, thank you for joining us today. Remember, you don’t have to have all the answers to have a meaningful and beautiful life of faith. We’ll see you next time on Living Beyond the Shadow of Doubt.