Episode 223: Light is the New Black with Haleigh Howland

Hey everyone, welcome to today’s episode of Living Beyond the Shadow of Doubt. I think we’re both in need of a deep breath in and releasing. Today’s a big day. I have Hayley Howland with me today and I’m so grateful that you made time in your schedule to meet with me because you have big things happening in your life and we’ll get to that in just a minute. But welcome, yeah.

Yes. Yeah. Well, thank you for having me.

So glad you could. So Haley and I know each other because we are fellow authors together in the JOA collective, the Joan of Arc Publishing collective.

Yep. Fellow JOAs.

That’s right. And your husband was on the first season of Riders Island with me. We were both in the same season and tomorrow we’ll just jump in. not? Yes. Yes. Haley heads out and you’re going to be part of season two.

Just jump right in. Yep, I am, I am. I’m gonna be part of season two. We leave for, I leave for Miami tomorrow and then we leave for the island on Monday.

Yes.

So very, very excited, still kind of packing. I’m mostly there, but there’s always those one, those last minute things, like, my gosh, I gotta make sure that this gets stuffed in and you run around the house kind of like a chicken with your head cut off.

Well, I debated whether or not to have you before or after you get back from the island because inevitably you will come back a very different Hailey.

Yes, that’s what I have heard. was very, when he went to the island and he came back, it was just such an experience for him that he just, he can’t say enough good things about it. And I think it surprised him how much it moved him and how much of a spiritual experience it was for him.

Yeah, I didn’t know exactly what to expect. Yeah, I found that as well. Well, let’s dive into the Haley now. And we’ll start by offering a bit of an intro to our listeners. Can you share with us a little bit about you, your background, your faith, family of origin, your work?

So I’m excited to have the same. Yes. and whatnot, the things that really kind of contributed to making you who you are today.

Yeah, I grew up here in Utah in a little suburb of Salt Lake City called named Riverton. Pretty small. When I went to school out there, it was growing, but not at the rate it is now. It’s boomed so much. When I grew up, was still a lot of farmland, still a lot of kind of more rural aspects to it. I I grew up in Utah, is predominantly LDS, but I did not grow up LDS. That presented its own differences and challenges to maybe somebody who has been part of a church and left or is who grew up in the church and is still in it. So that was an interesting dynamic. It’s there were definitely some times where I felt set apart because of it. And I grew up and I was always a performer, always out doing things, thinking, acting.

Okay. Yeah. for sure. Mm-hmm. you kind of name it, when I was 18, well, I had just turned 19. I had gone through my first semester of college, and then I moved to LA for three years, and I went to an acting conservatory out in LA, and moved home after I had, I spent a year out there after I had graduated, and it was just the culmination of like just a lot of… financial things that were going on. Like it was the rider strike that happened. And then on top of it, know, the 2008 kind of market crash and housing, uh, housing crash. so it, it was not financially feasible to stay out there at that time. It just didn’t make sense. So I moved back home. Um, and now fast forward, I know, that was 20 almost years ago. Fast forward now, I’m married to my amazing husband Nick, who you just talking about. I have two step kids and my two doggies. And I sing I’m the lead singer in a rock band.

Mm-hmm. Thank you. I love that. Tell us the name of your rock bed. I know it, but tell our listeners.

It’s Blood Moon Majesty. We just had a show last night. So that’s why I’m a little bit, a little raspy, but it was lot of fun. We had a blast. Thursday night shows are a little bit different. It’s definitely a crowd, more, I don’t want to say like a more hardcore crowd, but they’re definitely the people who want to come out and see a show on a weeknight. You know what I mean?

They’re dedicated.

Yep, absolutely.

That’s so fun. And folks can follow you on Spotify. Yeah.

Yeah, we’ve got music up on Spotify. I’m the lead singer and we kind of do it a little bit differently. The guys will come to me with an idea for a song and they’ll have it all fleshed out. And I will then go and write a melody and lyrics to what they’ve already written. And typically when you write a song, you kind of do it. Kind of transversely, you would write the lyrics and the melody first and then your band would play the music. If we get the music to it, so we kind of do it a little bit back.

Okay, I see. Awesome. Well, I look forward to our listeners getting introduced to you and your band. So let’s rewind just a little bit. You said you grew up in Utah. Is your family from there? Like have they been from there? Did they move there before you were born?

Yeah. Yeah, my mom grew up. Yeah, my mom grew up in Utah. Long time family from there. She grew up LDS. My dad is actually from Australia. And so he was born out there. His parents had immigrated right after World War II. His family had kind of immigrated from Holland.

I’m Tracy, and I’m with Connect. Okay. Okay. Afterwards, my great grandfather actually would hide Jews from the Gestapo in their attic. He was an artist, he was a painter. And so he had an area where he had all of his paintings and there was a like hidden closet behind all of it that he would hide people in and kind of help them as they were moving through Holland.

Wow. get them to safe, get them safe passage. So he was kind of like a railroad network, if you will, for that. So they moved to Adelaide, Australia in like the, gosh, I don’t know what year it was, but they moved with their whole family to Australia. And my dad was born there. And then they immigrated from Australia to Utah in the late, like the mid to late 70s.

Wow. Wow, that’s true. Okay. Wow. Your roots are very diverse and very, very rich and deep. So you bring a very unique perspective to this podcast. As you know, it’s called Living Beyond the Shadow of Doubt. It started, it was something I started kind of accompanying my pivot in my faith journey. I did grow up in the LDS faith, sometimes called the Mormon. sometimes the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So you bring a perspective of somebody who didn’t grow up in, particularly in Utah, not part of that mainstream faith. And you said there were times when you felt a part of, like separated from that. And I’d love to know little bit more about that experience. I’m wondering, I find myself wondering, you know, some of the folks that I interview, they have found their faith journey has brought up questions and doubts for them as it relates to beliefs that they were taught from the time they were very, very young. And you bring kind of a flip side view, maybe some of your doubts. or your questions were maybe more directed towards this mainstream faith slash religion slash group of people. Because there is a culture that goes along with that for sure. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, for sure. And especially in Utah. I think you hear people talk about, you know, maybe if they grew up LDS outside of Utah, that it’s a very different situation than if you’re in Utah and raised in it, because there’s so many people who are around you who are LDS. For me, and it’s interesting because I was just talking with somebody about this a week or two ago about growing up in Utah and not being Mormon. The person I was talking to is a male. For me, growing up, there was never anything that I could do that would ever be good enough to be accepted or considered someone who would be worthy to marry if I didn’t get baptized or if I wasn’t going to be going down that path. And I would hear, like I would go on, I would still go on dates with people, but it was always this weird expectation that there was going to be.

Mm-hmm. Okay. Like some, something was going to happen more, more sexually towards the end of the day. And that was just not me at all. So we would, we would be. Yeah. We would. Yeah, absolutely. Just because there was an assumption and an assumption that because I wasn’t, I was an LDS that I had loose morals, which was. Couldn’t be further from the truth, but you would hear people. And most of the boys. Yeah.

That’s so interesting. It was unspoken, but it felt implied. Wow. My goodness. would be talking about how they’d have their fake IDs and they were going to the strip club with their friends and all of these things, but then they were going church the next day. And I was like, I’m so confused right now. So it always felt for me that I…

Wow. There was always an assumption that I was somehow the bad girl or that I was loose morals, loose character or something like that. With my brother and even my dad, they were considered more of a project. We had a lot of people who I, who maybe I played soccer with or he, my dad was a soccer coach. He coached my team and he coached my brother’s team. And so people would bring him and my brother, books of Mormon. as a route to, you’re such a good person. You you have to be Mormon so they can save you. Whereas on the flip side, I never got anything like that. Not that I was needing that or wanting that or anything. It was just an interesting observation of how different the two.

perceptions. assumptions about yeah, the perceptions were you know, and I’m seeing that a little bit now as we As I’m Nick with his two kids who are almost 14 and 18 the older daughter who’s 18 and his son’s 14 and just How they are navigating a culture that they stand apart from.

you’re seeing some of maybe what you experienced, you’re seeing that they might be also navigating similar themes or situations.

Mm-hmm. I’m glad that they have you to help them.

Yeah, and it’s very, it mirrors very much. Thank you. I think it’s been a good perspective for for them for me to have when they’re going going through this because I think otherwise both You know Nick was very LDS growing up and so I I Know that in the back of his mind. He probably knew that those sorts of judgments and things occurred, but when it’s not Directly affecting you. don’t you don’t think about it.

Yeah. It sounds like, you know, going back to your growing up years, kind of your early young adulthood, you were given a behind the scenes look. Some of the boys you said that you would go on dates with shared with you things that maybe they wouldn’t have shared with others that were female your age at the time. because they were members and because of these assumptions they made about you, they did share certain things. So you got a really interesting behind the scenes look there.

Yeah, definitely a different perspective than I think the majority of my peers probably got on the flip side.

Got the reverse. So I’m curious, Haley, then you mentioned your mother was raised LDS. You were not raised LDS. So I’d love to know then how spirituality or faith or beliefs in that area came into play for you. Maybe it wasn’t until later. don’t know. I’d love to hear more about that story, that part of your story.

Yeah, for sure. My mom was raised, LDS, so by the time, really by the time that she and my dad started dating in high school, she had left. and my dad was raised to Dutch Catholic reform in a pretty strictly, a pretty strict religious household.

Okay. However, when we both my brother and I have a brother who’s four years younger than I am. Neither of us were ever raised in a way that we went to church consistently or had a religious or spiritual upbringing in any way. think I can count on them count on one or one hand the number of times that we would actually had gone to. like a non-denominational Christian church or anything like that. So as I got older, I very much believe that spirituality is human driver and that it is something that we search for in ways.

Let me work. And I think it differs for everyone. Someone’s spirituality can be communing with nature and being on a hike and or spending every Sunday with their family. But I think we we find we find something that speaks to us that… that brings and then it also brings community together in a way. And I kind of that that would be I would say the one downside maybe to not being raised in any kind of religious upbringing is that you don’t have the structure or the fundamentals to create a spiritual practice. Because I know a lot of people who are like going to the island, for instance, they will sit and meditate or they will pray or they’ll connect with whatever their higher power that they connect with on a daily basis. it’s kind of, it’s a non-negotiable. And because I never had that, was, it’s been very hard and I’m still not great at it. trying to work that in to my life and find that.

Wow, such a fantastic point that you make there, Haley, that I hadn’t thought of. I mean, some folks that grow up with quite a black and white system in place about what spirituality is and what it is not and what’s the right way to observe it versus a wrong way, which I don’t believe that exists, by the way.

Yeah, thank you. Mm-hmm. But I’m just saying some folks would be grateful that they didn’t have that instilled in them, you know, from a young age. So it’s, really appreciate you sharing that perspective. Like you come from a space of, wasn’t given really much of anything and I am trying to create what feels like a meaningful connection, practice, observance of what God, the creator, source, the divine means for me in my life and how I experience that in my life.

Yeah, yeah, and I think it’s been interesting because I don’t necessarily have religious trauma that some people do that have grown up in a in any particular religion may and.

Sure. Sure. And so I think that is actually been that part has been really good as far as my relationship with Nick, because I don’t think there is the. There aren’t the triggers that we both have on the same things and we can hear one another and listen and offer feedback in different ways that maybe the other person may not have realized or seen.

you tour. It sounds like it kind of balances itself out. You balance one another out in that area, which is very beautiful. Yeah, I appreciate knowing that and you sharing that unique perspective. So I’m curious to know then, you know, what your journey to… that connection with your inner knowing, with your inner voice, source, you know what that has looked like. And most likely, if you’re like the rest of us, you’re still on that journey.

For sure. It, I think, started getting really loud for me towards the end of my first marriage. When I was living in LA, I was seeing someone we were doing long distance. And when I moved back, we started seeing each other more frequently and more regularly. We had almost a 13 year relationship. We were only married for three years, but towards the end of my marriage, just felt a pull to find something more. And for me, what it looked like, I think one of my very biggest moments of knowing was when I was reading Rebecca Campbell’s first book, Light is the New Black. And that opened up an idea of spirituality for me that wasn’t necessarily bound by any particular type of religion. And it talked more about finding a source of inspiration in this and a higher power. that felt more connective. It wasn’t waiting to be saved by anyone. wasn’t your religion telling you what’s right from wrong. You were still in control of your autonomy and what you decided to do with your life. But it

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It gave me some inspiration, I think, to go and find something that was bigger outside of myself. And then it’s kind of funny. You start to dip your toe in, and then maybe something will happen where you’re like, I’ve got to like, this is, people will think I’m weird. People will think I’m too out there. I got to like close that off and not show those parts of like the woo woo.

Mm-hmm. That’s so interesting. even if they’re like the parts that slightly attract someone to you in the beginning, if you get too weird, and they’re like, oh, whoa, hold the phone. So after my divorce, I had started to date someone. And I think that was in large part something that initially was an attraction to me, but then soon was like, oh, but don’t get too weird. Don’t get too woo-woo. Don’t get too in your…

You felt that coming, this individual. Okay. Yeah. Then I kind of put a lid back on it and I don’t know, maybe in the last. probably in the last three years since Nick and I have dated, the woo has come spilling forth. Even Rockwell, Nick’s son, we were pretty early on in dating. And, oh wait, no, we had, we had gotten married actually because he had said to one of his friends, he goes, yeah, my mom’s a witch. His friend was like, what? Like, yeah, she’s a witch. There’s crystals all over my house. And he’s like, and I was like, that could be interpreted so differently if you didn’t know what he was actually talking about. What did you call your mom? So, um, I would.

Yeah. Thank you. I would say that’s in line with, you know, what I enjoy the description because it does incorporate the idea of someone who is just outside of the norm of what they are trying to find for themselves.

Definitely self-guided, self-directed. But your reaction to what your stepson shared, I the unfortunate truth is that title or that word, which has had various meanings over the years, usually not cast in a positive light. I I was one that used to look at that word. or what that meant in a different light than I do now. And I’m grateful that I don’t cast the judgment that I used to. It really came from a place of not understanding, of gross ignorance really, and probably fear of ideas that had been passed down through the years. when I say years, I’m talking, you know, centuries, not just my parents or grandparents, right? I’m talking… There’s a history there that only tells one side. Yeah, so

for sure. Yeah, definitely. It’s definitely something that obviously has been passed down through, like the connotation of the word has been passed down through, you know, ancestral and historical lines.

Yeah. Yeah. and the more that I yeah and and so I’m grateful that you you’re owning who you are whatever that whatever word you use to describe it and you can go outside of what and you obviously do you go outside of what has been handed to you to define yourself I think that’s that’s what’s at the heart of being a spiritual being of being somebody who

But that’s a very good point. Yeah. is trying to connect with that higher power, is trying to conduct themselves on a regular basis, just continually doing better, upleveling, reaching that next higher version of self. And so it’s.

Yeah, that’s a very good point. I so that’s, you’re kind of, you’re like, I bet there’s even if they wouldn’t say it out loud, there are folks that might be a little envious of this autonomy that you have and that you are acting in and able to be so expansive and grow because you have thrown out external definitions.

Thank you. think I do think there’s still obviously some stigma between I mean, even if you weren’t to even if you weren’t to know anything about my spiritual beliefs or desires or any of those things to to look at me when I don’t have my cardigan on. And I’m you know, I’m tatted I’ve got like both arms or almost full sleeves, all over my legs. think there was definitely, there, there are still assumptions made based on appearance and, and without, without getting to know who I am first. And I do agree with you that I think in part of it, there is some maybe desire or, um, don’t know if I want to use envy as the word, but just a desire to, have that autonomy and to feel free to express yourself. However, it is that you want to want to express yourself and it, and it’s used in, in verbiage to say like, Oh, well she’s

Was that hard? She’s a little different than what we expect. That’s always been my favorite. well, she’s just not what we expected. When people beat me, I’m like, yeah, I get that a lot.

So was it hard to come to that place that you were just describing of just unapologetically owning that part of yourself?

I think it came with. It came after a period of some difficult things happening to me. When I was 18, just before, the summer before I moved to LA, I was in an abusive relationship. And one of the things, thank you, it’s part of what I’m actually writing about in the book is this, and how it actually,

Okay, I’m sorry. kind of spearheaded this self-reclamation in a way. Because one of his big things, I had always loved tattoos. And when I had turned 18, I wanted to get a tattoo to commemorate a friend of mine that had passed away. And this boyfriend at the time, he was adamant that I was not going to do anything to mark or mar my body, that my body was his to tell me what I could and couldn’t do with it. And so that was one of the very first things that I went and did when that relationship finally ended was to go with my mom and I got a tattoo for this friend that had passed away. And that was kind of the first step of like, this is me doing what I want to do for myself with with myself and it’s not a very permanent way of proclaiming that. But I found that it was something that made me feel very, it made me feel very unique because they were they were pieces of art I chose for a very specific reason for a very specific time in my life. And so it my story in a way that I think was completely different than what I had ever been used to.

That’s so cool. It’s so liberating to step into that autonomy and to claim that power that’s always been there. perhaps we just didn’t claim it for whatever reason. We didn’t see it. We didn’t know how. Or we listened to some of those external voices that said, no, you can’t do that.

Mm-hmm. You belong to me. That’s probably my most favorite part to focus on, especially as I change the title of my podcast to Living Beyond the Shadow of Doubt. As I… would allow myself to really just embrace the uncertainty and embrace the unknown that comes inevitably when you feel like your world has been rocked, in my case, that’s what happened. And I found that there was so much to be celebrated on the other side of that, on the other side of taking the reins, of owning my autonomy when it came to my spiritual faith. life observances and whatnot. So I’d love to know from you, like what are some of those moments of joy and bliss that have come from you owning your journey, you know, living in this space and from a place of purposeful intention, you choosing what you do, what you don’t do and how you observe or don’t observe.

I think one of the biggest… blessings and one of the best things that has ever happened to me is that when I finally stepped into myself fully is when Nick and I finally got to a point where we were both, was both the right place, right time finally for us to start dating. We had met so, we had met many years ago. A friend of mine had introduced, wanted to introduce us. She works for Nick.

Mm-hmm. And he had just moved back and she’s like, oh my gosh, there’s this new classic surgeon. He just moved back from Texas. He’s amazing. He’s funny, all of the things. And I was dating, um, I was dating someone. He was kind of dating someone at the time. And we’ve both talked about the fact that if, if for whatever reason we had put the relationships that we were in to decide and started dating each other at that point, it just wouldn’t work. Healthy matches healthy and he has said multiple times like I was not at the point of healthy that would have matched yours and I would have just dragged you down. so fast forward four years when I’m finally single, he’s finally single and we start talking on Instagram. It just, we were both at a point where we had worked on ourselves and found found ourselves enough that we could.

Mm-hmm. entertain Six eight months down the road actually having a relationship with what with one another And I think You can be you can do a lot of great work and And have an amazing fulfilled spiritual practice with yourself but I think once you’ve found someone who is on the same trajectory as you it just spearheads your you’re healing in your growth exponentially to be on that same path and that same trajectory. And then you have someone who can hold you accountable when you maybe backslide a little bit or you don’t, you’re not putting in the time and the efforts that you want or you’re not seeing the things in yourself that you used to see. And they can hold that mirror up for you.

That is really beautiful, Hailey. That resonates. What a gift to be in that space and be able to find one another and be able to share a journey that’s so deeply meaningful to both of you. Wow, that’s so cool. I love that for you both. One of the last questions I like to ask each of my guests comes from the title of my podcast. And that question is, what does living beyond the shadow of doubt mean to you?

Ooh, that’s a good question. I… I really think that at the core of that is living your life in such a way that you don’t hold on to the mindset of sitting in the things that have happened to you as a victim, but you are able to find where they…

you where they were able to give you a gift to transmute that pain into something bigger, into something that you could find yourself more deeply from. There have been numerous things in my life that I could probably sit in and just feel sorry for myself or blame somebody else for, or… you know, have a very victim mindset in. But it’s, it’s definitely a choice. You have to choose to do the things to not sit in that, whether that’s telling your story or whether that’s going to therapy and doing the work in that way. I think living within a shadow of a doubt is dropping all of that victim identity.

Mm-hmm. and standing in your sovereignty of your life.

I love that. That’s a great description. It’s really just shedding a lot of the baggage. I love that. So any last thoughts to leave with our listeners before the new version of Haley returns from the island in a little over a week?

Mm-hmm. I’m very excited. There is a large part of me that’s very nervous because I am going, we’re going with a lot of people who have a very dedicated spiritual practice, like I said, and I’m just like, I don’t know what I’m doing. We’re just figuring it out as we go along. And I am hoping that there is something, you know, some sort of Epiphany or lightning strike that’s going to happen, but I’m also okay Knowing too that it could be a very quiet a very quiet change and I think recognizing that the change in In ourselves and the change in our lives. We want to be these big momentous Gifts from the heavens and sometimes they are in the very quiet moments and they you don’t recognize them until you have been outside of it and you can reflect on it

That’s amazing. That’s really, that’s beautiful.

I’m so nervous.

I’m so excited for you. It is truly a once in a lifetime opportunity and experience. And yeah, it forever changed me and I’m forever grateful for it. I have such good memories. It was such a choice experience. So just lean into all of the jitters and just know that you’re probably gonna say or do some things that you feel silly about or… Maybe embarrassed to just lean into that too. Happened to me too. Just embrace it all. The beautiful and the messy and the uncomfortable and the divine, all of the things. So, well, just a few more quick questions. I’m looking for literally one to two word answers for our listeners to get to know you. Tell us your favorite book or a favorite book.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yes, thank you. Thank you. That is perfect.

Right now anything by Rebecca Campbell or even Glennon Doyle, I would say Untamed was a huge one for me.

Awesome, great recommendations. And what is your favorite way to spend a Saturday morning?

Sleeping in. If I can sleep in past 8:00 AM, that is a huge win for me. And then just having a slow morning with my dogs and my husband, drinking coffee on the porch. That’s the dream.

That sounds lovely. And finally, what is one thing you are most looking forward to in the coming year?

I think just the growth that comes from the book being released and being able to share my story on a larger scale. It’s scary, but it’s that “good scary” where you know you’re stepping into exactly where you’re supposed to be.

I love that. “Good scary” is a great place to be. Haley, thank you so much for joining me today. Safe travels to the island, and we can’t wait to hear all about it when you get back.

Thank you so much for having me. I can’t wait to catch up when I’m back!