Episode 191: On a Soul Level We Are Whole (& Always Have Been) with Julie Cluff

Meagan Skidmore (she/her): Welcome everyone to today’s episode. If you’ve been following me for a while, you know that I’m in this transition phase with my podcast. For two and a half years I’ve called it Beyond the Shadow of Doubt, and now I’m reimagining and rebranding it—adding one more word. We’ll still touch on the challenges and pivots in our journeys, but I’m in this place of focusing on the joy, talking about the beauty that often comes from a messy, difficult journey and the new insights we wouldn’t otherwise have learned.

Today I have Julie Cluff with me to talk about her journey, and I cannot wait. We chatted a bit before I hit record, and I know you’re going to love getting to know her just as I have. So, Julie—welcome to the podcast!

Julie Cluff: Thank you so much, Megan. I’m thrilled to be here.

Meagan: I want to give our listeners as much time as possible to get to know you, so I’ll turn the mic over to you. Please tell us about your background—your family, upbringing, faith, education—whatever makes you, you.

Julie: Currently I’m known as a grief coach, which is the space I’ve been in for some time. I’m also reimagining my brand to include spiritual connection—helping people tap into intuition, angels, spirit guides, and loved ones across the veil.

I grew up in Florida (I’d love to live there again!) and now live in Nashville, Tennessee. I had three children with my first husband, divorced, then remarried quickly thirty years ago and had three more children—so six in all. I was raised in the LDS faith, served as a seminary teacher, held various leadership roles in the Church, and that background shaped much of my life.

In 2020 I published Miracles in the Darkness, sharing my journey through loss and rebuilding. Over the years I’ve shifted from identifying as religious to “religious and spiritual,” and now more fully spiritual—seeking that personal connection to the Divine, which I haven’t always felt but have come to recognize as guidance through every step of my life.

Meagan: You started out first as a grief coach—tell us how you came into that work.

Julie: I still coach grief, and I even train other coaches in grief work. I developed a complete program—The Hope Model of Healing—with a workbook and five “Foundations of Growth.” The final foundation is Rebuilding, which focuses on reconnecting to joy after loss.

One framework I teach is push and pull energy. Push energy moves us away from what hurts—like a reflex to step off a bed of nails. Pull energy asks, “What am I moving toward? What brings me joy?” Both are important, but we have to intentionally engage pull energy to actively re-invite joy into our lives after a loss.

Meagan: That resonates with what I’m learning in emotional alchemy—riding the wave of emotion rather than pushing against it. Can you share what first brought you to grief work?

Julie: My own life was an experiment in grief. My father struggled with unhealed trauma; his brother and my great-uncle died by suicide. Then when I was 27, my brother died by suicide. That tore my world apart—years of anguish over whether he was okay in the next life, circling in fear and religious guilt.

Two years later I went through a divorce and remarriage. Then, in 2007 on Mother’s Day, I was in a car accident that took the lives of my two youngest children—David (8) and Carrie (10). The car rolled; I heard a calm voice telling me to pull my arm in and so avoided losing it. The children were thrown clear. That was the turning point of my own grief journey.

Meagan: I’m so sorry, Julie. Your strength in sharing this is incredible.

Julie: Thank you. In the moment of that accident, all I needed to heal was available to me. I believe we’re always whole at our soul level, even amid our deepest challenges. It took three years of intense work—therapy, EMDR, journaling, journal prompts like “What happened? Why did I react this way? What do I want to do differently?”—before I felt the darkness lift. A priesthood blessing on the third anniversary set me free from the heaviness I’d carried.

A few years later I awoke with profound gratitude for that experience—not grateful my children died, but grateful for the impact it had on my life, my perspective, and the work I now do.

Meagan: That reminds me of the house that survived the LA wildfires because it was rebuilt with fire-resistant materials. Everything around it burned—but that home stood. It illustrates exactly what you said: these experiences break down our foundation so we can rebuild stronger. Those homeowners still have loss—their neighbors, their old street—but they came through.

Julie: Exactly. We can’t stop the waves, but we can learn to ride them. Grief isn’t the problem; it’s part of the healing process. We must choose how we rebuild—on bitterness or on compassion.

When I lost my children, I had thoughts of punishment: “I shouldn’t have driven on a Sunday,” “I must have sinned,” “Are they really okay?” But I’ve learned that everything is love. Judgment is fear. There is complete love and acceptance on the other side. Our focused attention draws more of what we look at: if we look for punishment, we see it; if we look for love, we see that instead.

Meagan: Watching you describe this is so powerful—the way you held space for the raw emotion while choosing to learn and grow. Can you share a tool you use when you feel triggered or overwhelmed?

Julie: When I’m triggered—say, by something my husband says—I practice self-compassion and curiosity. I journal: “What happened? How did I feel? What part of me is in pain here? What do I want to do differently next time?” I treat triggers like a toddler saying “Mom, Mom!”—a signal that some inner child pain needs attention.

I also create small oases of joy. After my kids died, I threw myself into tennis—focusing on a little yellow ball cleared my mind and reminded me I wasn’t only a grieving mother but also a person who could play and laugh. It’s crucial to give yourself permission to experience those moments of relief, guilt-free.

Meagan: I’ve learned that too—creating space for small joys, staying present, and allowing grief and gratitude to coexist. What might bring you bliss in an ordinary day?

Julie: One of my little joys is chopping vegetables—there’s something grounding and satisfying in the rhythm. But a bigger moment of bliss was two years ago on my first whale-watching trip off Cabo. I was grumpy at the delays, uncomfortable in the boat, and we’d seen almost nothing… until I silently said, “Thank you, angels, for bringing the whales close.” Ten minutes later we were surrounded by breaching whales and playful dolphins. Toward the end one whale slapped its tail skyward—waving at us—and then disappeared. Our guide said, “You guys have good energy!” I knew in my heart it was the angels and my children helping create that miracle.

Moments like that remind me of how connected we are to spirit guides, angels, and loved ones beyond the veil. Any time a loved one crosses my mind or I see a repeating number (for me it was “12”), I know they’re trying to say “I’m here.”

Meagan: I love that. The more we recognize our soul’s divine spark—the love, joy, and peace at our center—the more we open to ongoing miracles. As we wrap up, I always like to ask: What does “living beyond the shadow of doubt” mean to you right now?

Julie: It means remembering—when I’m off track or haven’t centered myself in days—that I can always reconnect to my soul’s center of love and peace. We’re meant to live fully here, ride life’s waves, chop our vegetables, play tennis—and pause to breathe, feel joy, and know we’re infinitely loved.

If you’d like to connect with Julie and learn more about her grief-coaching, spiritual mentorship, or to receive her angel messages, you can find her on Instagram @juliecluff.coach or visit her website at juliecluff.com.

Fun rapid-fire round:

• Favorite book? To Kill a Mockingbird

• Introvert or extrovert? Ambivert (leaning introvert)

• Favorite artist? Any original painter—especially a dear friend whose textured work hangs behind me!

• Morning lark or night owl? Morning lark

• Celebrity crush? I don’t really have one!

• Water, seltzer, or soda? Plain water (with a pinch of electrolytes)

• Furthest place traveled? Australia

Julie, thank you so much for sharing your heart and wisdom today. It’s been an honor.

Julie: Thank you, Megan. I’m so grateful for the invitation and for the beautiful work you’re doing here.