Episode 185: I Wanted the Connection that Prophet Muhammed Had With God w/ Mona Rose

Welcome to the episode today on living beyond the shadow of doubt. I have Mona Rose with me and I am especially excited to talk to you, Mona, because of the very little I know about your background from our recent conference, JLA Collective and the Mosaic Network Success Codes Live. I got just a taste of it and I’m so excited to hear more of your story.

So welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much, Megan. Thank you for having me.

Absolutely. So can you start by sharing with us your background, you know, your family, where you’re from, your faith of origin and all of those things and your role with JOA? Absolutely. So let me begin with my role with JOA.

So I am the operations and project manager for JOA, for Kira Brinton LLC and for Mosaic LLC as well. So I just started recently with Kira and I am so excited to be in this world, to be supporting all of these women that she’s supporting. And through that, meet all of these amazing individuals, including you, Megan.

So such a pleasure to be here. And so now my background story. I was born and raised in Singapore.

I was born and raised in a traditional Muslim family. My parents, specifically my mother, she was a well-known teacher of Islam. And what I can remember is that I was raised to become the next teacher of Islam, right? The next, basically her legacy will be passed on to me and I will be carrying on that torch.

That’s what I knew growing up. And so I was sent to, you know, I was, I went to an Islamic school, like a full-time school. I went to an Islamic university in Cairo, Egypt.

I basically learned everything that I could. I memorized all the things that I could before then becoming the next, you know, the teacher of Islam too. And so that is to cut the story short, but yeah.

And then I had my own following as well. So a huge following in Singapore. I have had sold out workshops, sold out events, just from me teaching women how to be a Muslim woman, how to be a Muslim woman, right? Teaching Muslim women how to be with God, how to be closer to God, how to, all the hows, and all the, you know, all the things that you can do, all the things that you should do, all the things that you shouldn’t do, you cannot do, all these things until, you know, things started to unravel.

So, but the background of the, my background story is literally that. It’s just me diving deep into the world of Islam, living in that, I want to use the word bubble. I don’t want to offend anybody, but that’s for me.

Like, I felt like I lived in that bubble of, this is all I know, and it was true. That was all I knew, Islam, the teachings of Islam. And being the child of a religious teacher that was also very well-known in Singapore, that was all I knew, yeah.

So the role that you had sounds quite, trying to pick the right word here. I don’t know that prestigious is what I’m looking for. It was honored.

It was important. You were kind of in the public, a public space, the public eye, I guess, within your faith community. Yes, that is absolutely true, yeah.

And it sounds like maybe the role of prophetess almost. Would you say that’s how it was viewed? I don’t think so. That word felt a bit heavy.

That word feels a bit heavy to describe how I was back then. Okay. I would say that being a descendant, one of the descendants of the prophet that gave my family this, I don’t know how to describe that.

There was this specific respect that was given to us because of that. But I wouldn’t say, I knew that for me personally, I have had that nagging voice in my mind, at the back of my mind, the whole time back then, that you are a descendant of the prophet, you better behave. You are a descendant of the prophet, you better do it this way or that way.

Or just basically, the other thing was, you are a daughter of a teacher of Islam, you better behave, right? That’s always the nagging thing in the back of my mind. But I never saw myself or even my mom having a role of a prophetess back then. It was more like a teacher of Islam with a huge following, yeah.

So you know what’s funny, Mona? As you were talking, I’m remembering one of the things you shared with us at the conference was that you are a descendant of the prophet Muhammad. And that definitely carries, like you say, this weight, this nagging that you were constantly hearing in the back of your head regarding how you should be showing up. You also mentioned something, how things started to unravel.

Can you share with us a little bit more about that part of your faith journey and maybe even transition? Yeah, that’s the most exciting part, right? Okay, let’s buckle up, everyone. I wouldn’t say it was a defining moment. I would say it was a slow, slow unraveling.

So what I remember deeply is that for me at that time, the person that I was back then, I wanted to know religion. I wanted to study religion to get to God. So for me back then, there was a difference between, even today, I would say the same thing.

This is still my opinion today. Learning about religion is one thing, but learning about God is another thing. I know that for some people, it’s one and the same thing.

You learn religion to get closer to God, for sure. But I got to a point in my journey as I was teaching. So I was teaching every single day.

I taught the, we call it tafsir. It’s just the, what does the Quran mean? What does this chapter mean? What is it teaching you, right? So I had my own personal journey of going deep into all of these words in the Quran to get closer to God, right? But then there was a point that the deeper I go into the religion, I felt a disconnect. It was subtle, but then it grew bigger and bigger and bigger as I go along.

So it’s just interesting to me that I’m just recalling all of the moments when I felt that there was somehow a disconnect. There is a disconnect between what I know deeply the divine is, what I know deeply God is, or who God is, and the things that I have been taught and now teaching. Right, there was like a subtle disconnect and I didn’t know what it was, but I kept on teaching.

I kept on going deep into things. I kept on asking scholars who were at that time, well-known as well, international scholars. I would talk to them about my doubts.

And so the answers I received were the typical answers, right? Like they would say, for example, one of the answers would be, do not ask too much because there was even a verse in the Quran that says, if you ask too much, it will just be bad for you, right? Just don’t ask, just believe and do. But for me, that wasn’t enough. I wanted God.

I wanted the connection that Prophet Muhammad had with God before any of these things happened. I wanted, there’s a story of him being in the cave and receiving the words of God. I want that moment.

I want this direct connection with God, the divine. I want more than what religion told me God is. And so that began the journey of unraveling bit by bit by bit, you know? And I remember one of the stories, one of the moments that opened up my mind, like something that popped the bubble, right? Was I was teaching as normal.

We were in this room. I had about, I think, 20 to 25 students at that time, all women. And I was teaching them something about, I don’t know what I was teaching about.

I just remembered the moment that happened. I had a student right in the back of the class. As I was teaching, she was crying.

And the more and more I taught about that specific topic, I must have taught about something related to heaven and hell, probably. I think, yeah, that’s what it was. And so she just kept on crying harder and harder and harder.

And then after the class, I went up to her and I asked her, what’s going on? How can I help? What’s going on right here? Share with me if you want to, right? And so she told me, now bear in mind that I grew up in a world of Muslims. I wasn’t exposed to people outside of Islam, right? Of course, I lived in Singapore. There were people who were non-Muslim and everything, but day to day, I’m in that situation of all Muslims around me, right? Religious school, religious university, all sorts of stuff.

So when she told me, she said, my parents are not converts. My parents are not Muslims. And I am worried about them.

I am concerned about them. They are really great people, but knowing that they might not go to heaven breaks my heart. Knowing that they might not go to heaven because they are non-Muslims, my heart breaks her heart.

So I don’t know, I have received this question throughout my teaching years over and over and over again. Question about like, if my best friend is a non-Muslim, what would happen to her if she dies and she’s not a Muslim? What happens? I’m used to answering that type of question, but in that moment, something just popped. Something popped.

I felt, wait a minute, something is not quite right here. But I didn’t know how to explain it at that time. I don’t think I even know how to explain it at this time either.

I just knew there was a disconnect right there. And that was just one of the moments. And so I would say my journey of unraveling, let’s just call it unraveling, it took about four to five years before I finally decided to be, okay, this is it.

I’m not gonna be teaching anything anymore. I’m not going to identify as a teacher of Islam anymore. I want God and nothing else.

I want this connection with the divine and nothing else, you know? And so that began the whole journey of pain, fear, shame, guilt, fear is at the top of the list, absolutely. I remember every single day or every single night I would cry to sleep because of this desire to know God and at the same time trying to leave whatever that I have been taught and told behind. So every night I would cry to sleep praying that, God, I am doing this to know you.

I am doing all of this. I am suspending all of my beliefs to get to know you, to know who you are, to know what you are made of, to really get connected to you in every cell of my body. So if I die, because one of the fears that I had growing up was dying as a non-Muslim.

So in that prayer, I said, if I die while trying to find you, I know that you know I am doing the right thing. I know that you know you’re not gonna put me in hell, right? That’s the kind of mindset and worldview that I had at that time. I remember doing that every single night, crying, praying, crying, praying.

And then I would still be teaching because that was my livelihood. I was still, you know, going to all these places where I would teach. I would still teach Islam and the Quran and everything.

But I remember multiple moments where my body reacted to all of these things because my body now knows that I’m not into this anymore, but I have to do it because if not, I can’t pay my rent. If not, I can’t pay my bills. Yeah.

So my body started to respond. And I sprained my ankle at one time. My lips became so swollen at one time, I couldn’t even move my lips and I cannot teach, right? And all kinds of stuff that my body was responding to, but I didn’t get it at that time.

I’m just like, I’m just gonna have to go through this because I need to pay for my rent. I need to pay my bills. And then it wasn’t until I became so, it felt like a sin.

That was my personal definition of sin at that time. It felt like a sin to continue to teach. And I know deep in my heart that I cannot, that I don’t believe in these things that I’m teaching anymore.

It’s hard to do that, right? So I decided once and for all to basically leave, to take a pause. That was the first thing that I did. I took a pause.

I told everybody that I am going to leave for how long, I do not know, but I just needed to take a pause and I did. I had savings. So I went to study in Oxford.

I just wanted to be in a place where nobody knew me, where nobody can say, oh, you are the daughter of the teacher of Islam. So you could just explore. Exactly.

So I went to Oxford and I tried to explore myself and I did. It was interesting. The journey of trying to find myself, trying to get to know who I am without all of these layers of indoctrination, I guess.

And so one of the stories is that I wanted to see how it feels like to no longer wear the hijab, the headscarf. So I felt like that was the right moment because nobody knew me. I was like a fresh, new face in Oxford.

And the fear, the programming was so bad. Deep that it wasn’t successful. I would say I was able to go out without the hijab finally, but it didn’t last long because of that deep rooted beliefs about what that represents, what that piece of cloth represents, right? And so the story was, I was in the dorm and I said, okay, I got ready.

I had my hair out and I’m like, I’m gonna go to school today without wearing the hijab. And I walked to the door of the dorm and I’m like, I can’t do this. I cannot do this.

So I went back, I put on my hijab and I went to school with the hijab on. After a few days, I tried again. Okay, I’m just gonna go to school like this and see how I feel throughout the day.

I only got as far as the door of the dorm building before I turned around, put the hijab back on and then I couldn’t do it. So every single time it’s like, the third time was I made it as far as the bus stop to take the bus to school. That was, and then I turned back around.

Mona, I am feeling this with you every step of the way because I have experienced something very similar with my faith of origin, as I’m sure you can imagine. You know a little bit about it. Anyway, I’ve just, this is visceral for me.

I just had to say that out loud. I get it. Yeah.

So were you able to finally release that? Not at that time. Not at that time. So I tried multiple times, but I wasn’t able to.

And so I spent the next, I think it was eight months or 10 months in Oxford with my hijab. I just could not let it go. So then after that, I came back to Singapore and I started to teach again, but this time a different way of teaching.

And I noticed at that time, after I came back from Oxford, I went back to teaching again, because again, money. I did not know how to, I did not know what to do. Teaching Islam, Arabic language was all I knew at that time, right? Then I went back to teaching Islam, but now it was a bit different.

And some of my students, of course, noticed the changes and some of them left because they saw the changes that I have been, that I, I don’t remember now what I taught that was different, but it was different, I could feel it. And so that didn’t last long either. I think I taught only for another year or so, not even a year, probably, I don’t even remember.

But this was in 2013, 2013. Before I decided again, that’s it. I’m not gonna do this anymore.

It’s just, it just doesn’t serve my soul. It just doesn’t serve my being anymore. So I had to make a decision, right? And so I did, I made a decision to stop.

And then at that time, I was already with my husband and we both left Singapore. He wasn’t from Singapore, but we both left Singapore to a place where, of course, we went to Mexico at that time. Again, nobody knew me, but this time I had extra strength.

I had extra internal strength to test and experiment and experience what life is like without the hijab. And I did it. So in Mexico was the time that I finally was able to live life without my hijab, but it wasn’t a fun thing.

It’s like, oh, I don’t have the hijab anymore. It’s not at all like that. It was, who the hell am I? Nah, that I do not have this thing on my head.

What do I like? What do I love? What, how do I want to do my hair? And then growing up, curly hair isn’t even something that people love. You have to straighten your hair. So do I have to straighten my hair? How do I straighten my hair? And all of these little basic questions, what color do I like? What food do I like? So all of the things, it’s not like a happy moment.

It’s like a whole internal going deep, lots of healing, lots of uprooting of things that I didn’t know was there. All the childhood stuff came up. All of the things came up as soon as I decided, that’s it, I’m going to know who I am.

I’m going to know who God is, but I’m gonna suspend that. I’m gonna prioritize me first. Who am I? What am I? That was my question back then.

So then that- If I can just interject, I am just dying to ask you some questions here. This is- Go ahead. This is such a beautiful, just heartfelt, real and raw story.

I mean, you have lived and continue to live on this journey in this path of an incredibly courageous life. And I just wanna honor that. This is the road less traveled.

This is the road less chosen. And I believe that’s in large part due to this tendency humans have to not tolerate these difficult, uncomfortable emotions that you described. The pain, the shame, the guilt, the fear.

We aren’t taught. It’s more of a more new concept that it’s a skill that can be cultivated, that we can practice and get better at and realize, oh, I’m not gonna die. I’m not in imminent danger.

It’s just really, really uncomfortable. And I think some of the meaning behind those feelings has a lot to do with those in our extended family, in our lives, our loved ones, right? Yeah. You are clearly in a different place now than you were at that time.

Can you tell us about some of the joys and even bliss you have found on this side? I say that acknowledging it’s an ongoing journey. There’s not ever a full arrival. But you are definitely in a different place now.

And I know that’s got to be rewarding on some level. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. The first thing that I noticed on this other side is that I no longer have this, I no longer have this fear and guilt and shame around my actions.

I know what are the actions that I love. I mean, I don’t know how to explain this in a coherent way, but I hope this sounds coherent. There’s no longer fear, shame or guilt around what I choose to do for myself that works for me.

Right? There’s no longer this thing going on. There’s also no longer the they versus us thing going on in my mind. This is us, this is them.

That hasn’t, that has blurred, that line has blurred, okay? And then the joy of being able to connect with God, to connect with the divine in a way that feels so deeply fulfilling compared to before it was, I’m doing this, yes, to get closer to God because I want to go to heaven. That hasn’t happened in my mind anymore. It’s just like here, now, I want to connect with God for here, now.

I need this sacred practices that I have to support my own day-to-day life, right? Here, now, not later on after. It’s like it’s moved from your head to your heart. From your, you’re less cerebral about.

Yes, and now before it was praying five times a day. You know, do you know, have you seen how Muslims pray? Maybe you’d have to do, okay, body movements, right? Yeah, and so we, I now move my body. I dance, dancing is my prayer now.

I feel the closest to God when I dance. That’s beautiful. When I move my body, yeah.

So that’s my sacred practice. One of my sacred practices today is that, dancing every single day to a song that is moving, that I know allows me to connect with the divine, and I dance, and then I do breath work. One of the top things that I do to really, really get into my body instead of my mind because that’s like the whole thing about my story.

I would say it boils down to getting out of my head into my body and my heart and my soul, and body movement and breath work have been the two tools that I have used yet there. That’s just gorgeous. I’m on a similar path.

There’s still much ahead and lots of growing left to do, but I feel very much what you’re saying. I can’t help but wonder, Mona, one of the elements of owning your sovereignty and listening, you mentioned multiple times that you just knew there was more. You didn’t say it in those exact words, but you wanted to have those experiences like your forebears, like the prophet had had.

You were seeking more. When one claims their spiritual autonomy and begins to take actions and observances and introduce new practices, new ways of observing their faith, that can be a very challenging thing for family members. Are you able to share about that aspect of your journey? Just a little, and if that’s not something that is comfortable, then that’s totally fine too.

No, it’s totally fine. In my case, my parents passed away a long time ago. My mom passed away in 2007.

My dad passed away in 2008. My unraveling began in 2011. So that gave me the space.

I called the death of my mom and my dad as initiation for me to finally get to know who I am without all of these things, right? Okay. But of course I have siblings. I have relatives and everybody in Singapore.

So when I decided to step away from my role, I decided to publish a blog post at that time once and for all, because I did not want to come out slowly. I wanted to come out just, this is who I am, accept me or leave me. So that created a whole thing.

I received death threats, all kinds of threats. I was publicly shamed because I was known and my mother was known. So because of that, it became like a big thing in Singapore, right? So people were warning other people like, make sure that your wives are no longer learning from this woman.

Make sure your daughters are no longer learning from this woman. So that happened. And me, I had to deal with two things at that time.

One is my internal process of trying to leave all the things that I was taught, all the things that I was told. That is a big process on its own, right? Like pulling out roots from your soul, really painful process. And then there’s the other thing about being publicly shamed, not being accepted, being rejected, being ostracized by your community, really.

I was holding two heavy things at that time of my life. And it was hard. It was very, very hard.

I pretended at that time, I pretended it wasn’t hard, but it was. It was hard. And so in terms of family, so because I didn’t have my parents anymore at that time, there wasn’t any worry about my parents specifically, right? There was just worry about siblings, students, relatives, and everything.

So when I published that blog post, of course, that’s when everybody found out. I posted the blog post with a picture of me without the hijab as well, because I just wanted to just come out, just do it. And so I did that.

And of course, it just, so I published it, oh my goodness, Megan. I published that blog post February 22. We are talking today, February 21st.

I published it February 22, 2016. So nine years ago. Next year is 10 years.

So nine years ago, almost to the day, oh, I published that blog post. And then one month after that, I finally got my visa approved. I’ve been trying to get my visa to the States approved for years before that.

It was never approved. But as soon as published that blog post, within a month, my visa got approved to America. And I left Singapore and I have been in the States since then.

Oh, wow. What a journey. I know, I know.

So I wasn’t there in person while they were all dealing with this. Mona has left Islam. Mona is no longer wearing hijab and I’m not in Singapore.

So I’m here physically, but I still felt the shame. I still felt the fear. I still felt the guilt.

I was very fearful. Very, very, I was very fearful. In terms of family, I would say that I could.