Episode 147: Middleground: the third option I didn’t foresee, with Kat Wordsworth

Meagan Skidmore (meaganskidmorecoaching.com): Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Beyond the Shadow of Doubt podcast. I am Meagan Skidmore, your host, and I have Kat Wordsworth with me today—Wordsworth, sorry, Wordsworth. We connected on social media, on Instagram, and at first all I knew you by was your Instagram handle, which is @about_doubt. Anytime I see that theme represented, I’m always curious to learn more and get to know who’s behind the scenes, so to speak—find out their story, what prompted them to create the account, and where they’re at. I was thrilled to connect with you and invite you to be a guest today. Thank you so much.

Kat Wordsworth: Thank you so much for inviting me.

Meagan: And I’m grateful we were able to make it work because you’re about six hours ahead of me.

Kat: Yes, as the listeners can probably tell by my accent, I am in the UK.

Meagan: Yes. Can you take a minute and introduce yourself—tell us a little about you and your origin story?

Kat: Yeah. As you said, I’m Kat Wordsworth—Wordsworth, as in William Wordsworth who wrote the poetry. I live in North England with my family—my two children, 11 and 8—quite a full-on age in terms of the taxi service I provide on most weeknights. I was raised in a Christian family—lots of different denominations—and have continued attending lots of different denominations as an adult. The main focus of what we’re talking about tonight is that about 15 years ago I went through a real faith crisis with capital letters. I’m sure we’ll unpack that, but yes, I have been through the trenches of doubt at its worst.

Meagan: Wow—15 years.

Kat: Yeah.

Meagan: That’s quite some time. I’d like to dig through that, as you aptly put it. You mentioned you’re in York. Is that where you were raised? Is that where your faith of origin is?

Kat: No, I’m actually from London—hate to confirm the stereotype that all English people are from London. I moved to York for university and then stayed because it’s such a beautiful place. If any of your listeners have never visited, add it to your list—it’s a stunning city steeped in history, which I admit to taking for granted.

Meagan: I mentioned earlier I’ve visited and loved it. Let’s go a little deeper: you said you were a member of various Christian denominations growing up. Can you tell us more?

Kat: I’m not sure how terminology differs between the US and the UK. I attended a variety of local churches. One was a Baptist church—but that means a different thing than it does in the US.

Meagan: Can you tell us a little more?

Kat: To be honest, I just know the Southern Baptist tradition isn’t the same as the Baptist Union in the UK. I’m not quite sure on the points they deviate. I’m not part of a Baptist church anymore—not for any bad reason. I’ve also been through Anglican churches—the Church of England, probably the most common church in the UK. Now I attend a local church that isn’t Anglican. It’s been interesting to have experiences across a breadth of denominations—the different cultures and focuses. With the context of doubt, I’ve seen places where it’s easier to admit to questions and places where it’s harder.

Meagan: If we can go back to where you really started to—what I call a pivot in my faith journey. It took an unexpected turn; I now refer to it as a faith expansion. Can you share what brought about that significant point?

Kat: There is a defining moment where it all crumbled, but—as is often the case—that moment was the result of so many other moments. The main thing happened when I was working for a church as part of the music team. I was at a worship leaders’ conference and, during a break, I went to the toilet, sat down and thought: I just can’t do this anymore. I don’t think the same things as the other people in the room.

Meagan: Was this when you were Anglican?

Kat: Yes, it was. But what led to that moment was so much. I literally wrote a book about it. It was a history of having the wrong expectations about what faith was supposed to look like—particularly what it was supposed to feel like. Add to that being a deep introvert in a culture that often associates strong faith with being extroverted and expressive. I had questions but kept suppressing them—which isn’t healthy—and that suppression tainted the questions with fear and shame. Once that sets in, it’s hard to get out. All those components overwhelmed me—being asked to feel and say things I wasn’t comfortable with. That was the pivot where I thought: I’ve got to face this. What do I actually believe? Not what do I want to believe so I don’t get in trouble.

Meagan: Such a lonely and frightening place.

Kat: Definitely.

Meagan: I’m guessing that’s one reason you started your Instagram account—to have a place to express that. It’s one reason I started this podcast: to talk about these things, peel back the layers, and let the shame begin to dissolve.

Kat: Yes. The Instagram is funny because I don’t have social media otherwise. It was the pressure of all that suppressed stuff needing to get out, combined with the mental state during UK COVID lockdowns—we were at home, allowed out for 30 minutes a day, I was homeschooling two small children while trying to work. Something snapped; I needed a release. That’s how the account started. At first it was anonymous because I feared someone I knew would find it. Funny to think back because now I don’t care. I started it to let stuff out and to find others who understood. I had very few people I could talk to, and nobody had been through the same thing. Finding a community has had a significant impact on my faith—knowing it wasn’t just me, that there were wider ways to experience faith. Instagram has been huge—for someone not good with computers or social media, as my children would attest! I’m not even good at replying to messages—as you can attest.

Meagan: I’m not amazing at responding either—I’m not one to judge. You talked about that pivot moment. Are you able to share what some of those beliefs were—the ones that had been percolating?

Kat: The word “doubt” means different things—an umbrella term. For some, it’s theology, particular churches, God’s nature. For me, it was the capital-D Doubt of whether God is there. Is it actually true? That was nagging because I didn’t experience things in the way I thought I was supposed to. The brain’s easy route is: either it’s not true, or I’m doing it wrong. I lived with those two possibilities for a long time—very unhealthy for soul, heart, and mind. I’ve been through all the different doubts—you could tick a lot on a list. It’s awful—lonely, isolating, terrifying. Underpinning everything was fear: fear of getting it wrong, fear of God being angry, fear of losing community and being isolated from family and friends. Working for the church, I had no friends who weren’t Christians, so honesty raised, Who will be left? It was my income too. So messy when tied to our circles, communities, livelihood. It amplifies the fear—how will I belong, be received or not?

Meagan: The idea of certainty versus uncertainty is highly prized in many traditions. How did you arrive at a point where you could release that hold—seeking certainty?

Kat: Difficult. Like you, faith meant certainty—absolute assurance, no questions. Moving away from that was hard because for some people it is true—they feel certain. I have friends who don’t experience doubts. For me, I realized I have doubts and a genuine deep faith. I experience both, therefore faith can’t mean certainty for me. I’ve seen people say to be certain isn’t to have faith—I’m not sure I agree, but there’s a spectrum. I can’t judge what’s in someone else’s heart, and no one should judge me. I know I have faith and doubts, so faith can’t equal certainty for me. That “you have to be certain” phrase really gets into your head and can terrorize you.

Meagan: I love what you posted on Instagram: you see your life of faith as an ongoing rebuilding and renovation project—beautiful.

Kat: That’s actually a quote (Peter Enns). But it resonated. I used to treat faith like a checklist—tick beliefs and you’re sorted. Life doesn’t work like that. It’s been a case of finding myself in situations and asking, How can faith follow me here? Do I need to widen my understanding? Renovation stuck because, as anyone who’s done building work knows, you end with something you like, but it’s a messy, destructive time getting there. Doubt can be like that—brute force making you question pillars of your life. It’s painful to clear rubble and rebuild. And in 10 years you might need updating again.

Meagan: What you’re sharing is so relatable—checklists, qualifying to be a certain type of believer. I’ve spoken with people worldwide—different Christian backgrounds—but the experience seems universal: questions, not knowing where to go, shame, stigma, fear. It shows how alike we are.

Kat: Exactly. The journey of giving yourself permission to acknowledge questions and doubts starts there; then deciding what to do with them, who to share them with, and the timeline—all different, but the process is similar. Sharing with communities—family, faith, work—is a different journey. For me, it was ongoing until I published a book, essentially a memoir, literally called Let’s Talk About Doubt.

Meagan: Congratulations!

Kat: Thank you. It happened gradually—letting one person in, then another—because it’s unbearable to live a split life where your closest friends don’t know your heart. You feel like a hypocrite wearing a mask. I couldn’t take that anymore. I let enough people in to have a safety net. Instagram came in there too. As shame released, there was less embarrassment. Messages kept coming: “Me too. That’s exactly how I feel.” Step by step, I reached a point where colleagues who aren’t religious have read my book. I’ll talk to anyone about it now—just to open the conversation so people don’t suffer in silence. That’s the point of the account, the book, and conversations like this—normalize the conversation about doubt. Shame and stigma keep people in the worst consequences of doubt for too long and stop them reaching the place where doubt can be a catalyst for faith.

Meagan: Beautiful. “It’s unbearable to live a split life” resonates deeply.

Kat: Absolutely. It took so much to start letting people in. British stiff upper lip—we’re not good at emotions or honesty. Letting people into the deepest part of your life is hard. I was prioritizing what others thought over my well-being—which is ridiculous. I had to choose me and be honest to hold myself together.

Meagan: That’s more common than we realize. Interesting that, as an introvert, one therapeutic way for you was writing a very public memoir and opening up on Instagram.

Kat: I should add: when I wrote the book it wasn’t intended to be published. It was a cathartic exercise to order my thoughts—to let the ending of the book happen. Getting a decade of mess onto paper to work with and make sense of. As Instagram helped people, I pushed a few doors—and publishers were interested. Sometimes I shudder that it’s available, and I wonder: if I’d written it for others, would I have been less honest? I tried to keep it raw. Many doubt books are written in hindsight or are academic. I wanted something from someone in the thick of it—so readers in their worst moments see theirs echoed. I kept it as honest as I could bear—and as my parents could bear.

Meagan: I commend you. I’m finishing a book too—with intent to publish—so I have to check myself. It’s not easy to show up raw and honest.

Kat: I was fueled by being close to that desperation—to read something like it.

Meagan: I like to talk about safe spaces vs. brave spaces. Safe spaces can exist—in therapy or coaching—but often the onus is on us to create brave spaces. You’ve done that: writing and publishing your memoir, being open on Instagram, inviting people in. The more we do that, the more it invites others.

Kat: Exactly. That’s why we’re in this space—creating even a tiny corner that’s safe for honesty and trying to increase the surface area of those spaces—internet, churches, interviews. Normalize the conversation about doubt—I’m hugely passionate about that.

Meagan: For listeners: what suggestions would you offer about creating or stepping into brave spaces?

Kat: First, acknowledge that while it was difficult for me to open up, I didn’t lose anything—I wasn’t ostracized. That isn’t everyone’s situation; some face real-life consequences. I’m privileged in my circumstances. For some, it’s about finding one person—but even that can be difficult. Sometimes that person is in a book or a podcast like this—some arena that makes you feel seen. For years for me, it was finding people in books—reading a whole book for one throwaway paragraph where someone admitted doubt: Yes—one more—so I’m less alone. Safe spaces look different depending on circumstances.

Meagan: Definitely. And sometimes all it takes is one.

Kat: So true. Probably unwisely—I keep my DMs open on Instagram so anyone can message me. I become that one person for many; we exchange messages so they know it’s not just them. People pour out their lives to a stranger on the internet because they can see I understand. So yes—my DMs are open.

Meagan: I’ve made a lot of virtual friends— including you—and at times it’s a lifeline. How has your faith journey been different than you anticipated as a child?

Kat: As a child I expected: you make the decision and it’s “happily ever after.” Once I started struggling, it felt like two options: fix myself—get rid of questions and go back to happily ever after—or doubts end the journey and I walk away. I didn’t expect the middle ground where I am: faith is a huge part of my life and I still have questions. I didn’t foresee reaching a point where I wouldn’t be scared of doubt. Funnily enough, reading the Bible helped—seeing how Jesus responded to those who struggled. He didn’t shun them; he walked toward them. That was my second pivot: maybe what’s most valuable to God is my honesty and integrity, not pretending. That’s a relationship—giving my real self, not hiding. Dissolving fear around doubt allowed me to move forward.

Meagan: I love that. I’ve experienced similar things. Many of us in faith expansion are trying to hold to our integrity. At the end of the day, all we can offer is ourselves.

Kat: Exactly. I don’t want to offer a tiny part and ignore the rest that’s struggling. I want to give it all—show up with integrity, not pretending or splitting myself. If I won’t split myself for other people, I have to believe that’s valuable to God as well.

Meagan: That makes me think of my kiddo, who identifies as LGBTQ+. It’s been over five years. Not pretending, not living a split life—just because I don’t understand something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist for someone else. Holding to integrity has helped me evolve. There’s a breaking point: you have to lean into who you are and are becoming.

Kat: Definitely—if you don’t let it out, it can have devastating consequences.

Meagan: One question I love to ask to wrap up: what does it mean to you to live beyond the shadow of doubt? I dropped the “a” from the common phrase on purpose—to peel away shame and stigma.

Kat: I love the change in meaning when you drop the “a.” To most people, “beyond the shadow of a doubt” means no doubts. Beyond the shadow of doubt hits me as moving past the shame and stigma—getting out from behind the cloud and into the sun. In hindsight, once I got past the awful stage, doubt has been a huge catalyst for growth. If I hadn’t had these questions—examined what I thought and where it showed up in life—I’d be in a very different place. Doubt forced me to grow—a refiner’s fire—chipping away and pushing reflection and maturity. Yes, doubt has shadows, but that’s not the only way it can be.

Meagan: I love that—no right or wrong answers. It does force us to grow. “Refiner’s fire”—I haven’t thought about that in a long time.

Kat: It’s also a lyric in a popular song over here—probably from the ’80s—so it sticks in my head.

Meagan: This has been lovely. If you’ll humor me—quick fun questions to get to know you. Favorite book?

Kat: Oh no—that’s so difficult! I’m a bookworm. I just read The Murder of Mr. Wickham by Claudia Gray—a murder mystery with protagonists from all of Jane Austen’s novels, written in Austen’s style. Incredible—beautifully written with so many in-jokes.

Meagan: That sounds amazing—I’m looking it up. Favorite artist?

Kat: Impressionism—maybe Monet. Those water lilies are beautiful.

Meagan: Introvert or extrovert?

Kat: Very introverted.

Meagan: Night owl or morning lark?

Kat: Probably a morning lark.

Meagan: Celebrity crush?

Kat: Standard answer—I’ve been rewatching Grey’s Anatomy: McDreamy—Derek Shepherd.

Meagan: Patrick Dempsey—good one. Still or sparkling water—or diet soda?

Kat: Still at home; sparkling at restaurants—makes it a bit more fancy.

Meagan: Farthest place you’ve traveled?

Kat: I think India is farthest from the UK (Andhra Pradesh—southern India; I spent a month there at university). I’ve also been to the Caribbean—don’t judge me if I’ve got the distances wrong!

Meagan: No judging! Fantastic. It’s been a pleasure—thank you for the interview. I’ll leave your Instagram handle in the show notes (@about_doubt) and a link to your book, Let’s Talk About Doubt. I’m looking that one up.

Kat: Thank you—it’s been a pleasure.

Meagan: I commend you for writing—and publishing—the memoir. That’s huge. My kid identifies as transgender, and the name of my book is Transparency—my faith journey interwoven with how much I’ve learned. It takes so much courage to own who you are, knowing the stakes and possible losses.

Kat: Definitely. I hope finishing it goes well—it’s hard work!

Meagan: Thank you. My goal is to publish before the end of the year. If my kiddo were still at Leeds University, I’d come over and have tea with you. I’ve loved this connection.

Kat: My home is always open to you. I have a friend in Texas—it’s quite a culture shock. The heat!

Meagan: The heat—yes. I studied abroad in London—fell in love. We could walk to Kensington Palace from where we were on Palace Court—Bayswater tube nearby. We took a coach to France, the ferry, and spent time in Scotland. So fun.

Kat: We love Scotland—it’s only three and a half hours from here. You have to come back—do a tour of the Hebridean islands—absolutely stunning. And yes, the book is The Murder of Mr. Wickham by Claudia Gray—the title gives away the plot, but she cleverly expands the storylines and pulls out faults to give motives. It’s beautifully written.

Meagan: Wonderful. I’d love a headshot I can use for social posts and show notes, and a short bio—no rush; within the next week or so would be great.

Kat: I’ll do that tomorrow. I can hear chaos behind me—time for bedtime duties!

Meagan: Thank you again—I’ll let you go. This has been great.

Kat: Thank you, Meagan. Lovely to meet you.

Meagan: Thank you.

Kat: Thank you.

Meagan: Bye-bye.

Kat: Bye.