Episode 138: Four levels of story with Coach & Kim Job

Host:
Welcome everyone to today’s episode of Beyond the Shadow of Doubt. I am so honored to share my guests with you today. These are two coaches I’ve admired for several years now, and I’m excited to finally have them here.

Guest 1:
Thank you. Glad to be here.

Host:
I was telling them before I hit record, I’m actually a little nervous for this chat, which doesn’t normally happen. That probably tells you how much I admire and care about them. So let’s dive right in. Would you both take a moment to introduce yourselves? Share a bit of your background—family of origin, faith of origin, education, career—whatever feels pertinent to today’s conversation.

Guest 1:
I consider myself a mom first. We have ten kids together, and family is really important to us. They’re the fuel, the “why” behind everything we do. We’re business strategy and story coaches, helping life coaches grow their businesses, discover their unique message, and find the courage to share it.

We’re a blended family in Pleasant Grove, Utah. I grew up a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints here in Utah County. I’ve been in and out of church activity—especially in my teen years when I was in foster care. At that time, I did go to church, but my path was full of rebellion and figuring out who I was. That pattern—being active, then not—showed up throughout my life. It always tied back to whether I felt safe. For a long time, I thought safety depended on external circumstances, but I realized it was internal. That’s something I now help clients with: how they may be getting in their own way.

Host:
Thank you so much for that.

Guest 2:
My background is similar but different. I was also born into the church. Over time, I had to figure it out for myself. For a while, I didn’t practice any religion, though I visited many churches. Originally, I’m from Southern California. I met my wife online, and after 8–10 months, we married. I left a job I’d had for 20 years and moved to Utah. That was a big shift—Utah is very different from California.

I talk a lot about integrity because it’s important to me. Along the way, my doubts were often filled in unexpected ways. I’ve always wanted to impact others, and staying true to my integrity is a big part of that.

Host:
That’s such a good foundation for today’s conversation. I’d love to hear about a pivot in your faith journey. Maybe one significant moment—though I know there are always many.

Guest 1:
Yes, I can think of one right away. I was going to church every week, but every week afterward I felt horrible. I finally thought: why am I going if I feel worse when I leave? So I stopped. And in that stopping, I discovered something foundational—that I have a loving Heavenly Father and Savior, and that connection is what matters. Not whether I’m inside a specific church.

That realization gave me power back. I learned to go to church with a new mindset, asking, “What can I learn today?” When I show up as a willing student, I always learn something. But when I went in closed and guarded, assuming others were judging me, I felt terrible. That was all coming from inside me.

Host:
That’s so important—recognizing the mental health component, the relationship aspect of religion.

Guest 1:
Exactly. For me, even something as small as being asked to “turn and talk” in Relief Society was overwhelming. What others thought was connecting actually pushed me away. That’s why deep listening and awareness are so important.

Host:
Yes, and it’s so personal. What resonates for one may not for another, and that’s okay.

Guest 1:
Right. And we all need to own our safety and stop giving it away.

Host:
That’s powerful. Thank you for sharing. What about you—your pivot?

Guest 2:
For me, integrity was always central. But I also had a rebellious streak. I decided at one point, “I’m not going to be a church guy.” Then one morning, I looked in the mirror and said, “I don’t know who you are, and I don’t like what I see.” It wasn’t about appearance—it was about spirit. I had lost myself.

That moment started my journey of going to different churches, seeking, and eventually returning to my faith of origin. But this time it was about finding a personal relationship with my Savior. Interestingly, I’ve become more like my dad—something I once resisted. That was a real turning point for me.

Host:
Thank you for sharing that. What strikes me is that both of you, in different ways, stepped away from your faith for a time, which gave you space to intentionally choose what you believed. That can feel scary for parents to watch in their kids, but it’s part of growth.

Guest 1:
Yes, we see it like the difference between spiritual childhood and spiritual adulthood. Parents often get stuck in the former—clinging to checklists and certainty. But real growth comes when we or our children step back and ask, “Who am I? What do I really believe?” Sometimes we return to the same faith, sometimes not—but what matters is authenticity.

Host:
Exactly. And as a parent, our job isn’t control. It’s creating space, not making little things into big things. Questioning faith is actually a sign of maturing, not something to fear. The best thing we can do is reassure kids it’s safe to question, and that we’re here—not with all the answers, but as a safe place to explore.

Guest 1:
So true. Children, too, are co-creators of their own lives with the divine. Our role is simply to be a loving presence, a trusted voice at their table of directors, not the one forcing decisions.

Guest 2:
And when we loosen that control, they often find their way in meaningful, unexpected ways. I’ve seen that in my own kids.

Host:
So much wisdom here. Thank you both for sharing openly.

To wrap up, I always ask my guests: what does it mean to you to live beyond the shadow of doubt?

Guest 1:
For me, it’s living at the co-creator level. I’ve given up tight control and added faith. I don’t know exactly what will happen, but I know I’m always supported.

Guest 2:
The image that comes to mind for me is light. When the light is bright enough, shadows shrink to your feet. Living beyond the shadow of doubt means choosing love, seeing others for who they are, and remembering that brighter light lessens the shadow.

Host:
Beautiful. Thank you so much for this conversation. I’ve loved it, and I know listeners will too.

Guest 1:
We’ve had a great time—thanks for the invite.