Episode 131: Losing certainty, Part 1 with Sytske Woodhouse Jr.

Meagan – Okay. everyone. One welcome to today’s episode of beyond the shadow of doubt. So grateful. You’re here with us, and I’m really excited for you to meet today’s guest and I’m gonna say it. I’m I know I’m gonna say it wrong. seats go, Woodhouse. Yes.

Sytske – Yes, that’s correct.

Meagan – I love your name so much, and I try really hard to say it correctly, because mine has been mispronounced so many times.

Sytske – I bet you know it’s funny, cause I have a hard time with other people’s names. So I I get it.

Meagan – Seat like you’re taking a seat. It’s seats.

Sytske – That’s right.

Meagan – SYTS. KE. And remind me again, what ethnicity or what cultural background is your name? I know it’s somewhere it’s European. Yes.

Sytske – It’s Dutch.

Meagan – It’s Dutch.

Sytske – And I’m actually half Dutch.

Meagan – Okay.

Sytske – Percent. so.

Meagan – Dad. and I don’t think I’ve ever met someone who identifies as a woman who is a junior. Your seats get junior. Yes.

Sytske – Oh, yes, I’m I’m actually Seatska the 4.th

Meagan – Of course.

Sytske – Yeah. And the reason I do, junior on Facebook is because my mom’s name is Seatska Woodhouse. So when I 1st went back to my maiden name on Facebook. We had the exact same Facebook name. And so people were looking for her and finding me. And so I ended up adding, the Junior just on Facebook. But I’m I’m the 4th seats in my family.

Meagan – That is way cool. I love that feminine power right there. So seats. I’d love to just take a moment to get to dive right in to

your background to you know you started a little bit. But tell us about your family. Maybe you know where you grew up. Your faith of origin. I know you

are practicing Lds right now, but I don’t. I don’t necessarily know your upbringing. Just anything. You feel comfortable sharing with our listeners about who Seatska is.

Sytske – Okay, great. I grew up in Utah in a predominantly Lds community. So it’s like typical Utah Mormon upbringing.

I was raised by faithful Lds parents, and I was raised to be obedient to all the things I was taught in church and at home. My dad was my bishop, and then he became a counselor in the State Presidency.

and my parents even socialized with like general leaders in the Church. So they really love the church. And I was really immersed in that community. Growing up. We did family home evening every week. We read Scriptures together every morning during breakfast.

I really felt like as I got older. I realized I didn’t think I didn’t know this until I got older, but I felt that my value is very much tied to how dedicated I was to the Lds church, and I was really dedicated.

Meagan – You felt your personal value, like your personal worth, was very much tied to your dedication.

Sytske – Yeah.

Meagan – Yeah, I’d love to hear a little bit more about that as we go on.

Sytske – Yeah.

Meagan – So you you were raised in a small town in Utah. Your parents were Lds. So where does the Dutch heritage come in? Was that several generations prior to that or.

Sytske – My mom was born in Holland, and then her parents met the missionaries.

and we’re converted and decided. And this is like during World war 2, and they were having a hard time, anyway. So they decided to move to America, and of course, to Utah, because that’s where the missionaries were from.

and my mom was 6 months old, I think, when they came over, so she was just a baby. So she is full Dutch. But she was raised

in Utah.

Meagan – Okay. So they actually met the missionaries in Holland. Yep. around World war 2. Okay. So small town, Utah. you went to school. You got your education, your tell us a little bit about that background.

Sytske – Yeah. Well, I mean. it’s it’s so hard to think about

my past, and who I was in the past, because I’m so different now, so it like takes

my gears. Have to kind of turn to go back there.

Meagan – Steam.

Sytske – Yeah, it is I. As I was thinking about this interview, I’m like, Oh, this is a lot more work than I thought it would be. It’s easy for me to talk about what I’m learning right now. It’s harder to go back.

Meagan – Thank you for being willing to to share your story.

Sytske – Yeah. Yeah. yeah. I mean, I just. I was very dutiful, like, I found a lot of

pride and joy in being obedient and faithful. and I, just, you know, kinda did all the right things.

There was one moment I wanted to share. I don’t know if this is the right time to share it. But

Meagan – Or a.

Sytske – There were a few moments in my childhood that kind of solidified that no matter how dedicated and obedient I was to the church.

I I still was inherently bad and void of goodness, like. There were a few moments that kind of sent me that message.

and I think those kind of stuck with me. and yeah, and one of those moments was in high school.

So this will make some people laugh. But my family, I was like a freshman in high school, and my family read the miracle of forgiveness together as a family.

Okay? And for the most part like that book made me feel pretty good about myself, because I was very obedient and doing all the right things

until we got to the chapter on the Sin against Nature. If anyone’s read that book.

Meagan – And.

Sytske – Reading the damaging words about homosexuality. With my family must have been when I decided I wasn’t gay and wouldn’t ever be gay.

because I just kind of that’s not me, you know. The words they use are like

abomination and like can you remember? But they compared them to like pedophiles and like bestiality, you know. So those were things I just couldn’t relate to.

and so I think I just convinced myself. even though there were like inklings of moments where I had attraction to girls.

I just convinced myself that I wasn’t that, and I wouldn’t ever be that.

And I was so convincing that for the next 10 years as I experienced falling in love with friends, teammates, roommates.

That did not mean I was gay. and I even remember in college. I was going to the Temple weekly, and I prayed really hard that

about my boyfriend at the time in college. Please help me to feel for him what I feel for her.

and I I prayed for, you know, months, and it just never happened.

But I still didn’t think I was gay. I just I you know, that was like after reading that book. It was just kind of not a possibility like I can’t be this

so that stuck with me. But I think, like I said in the beginning deep down.

Because you can’t really deny who you are and things about yourself. I I had that feeling of like something about me is bad like. I am not good.

Meagan – So did you. So I can kind of get a timeframe reference here. It sounds like reading that chapter specifically in the miracle of forgiveness contributed to that

that lack, that void of goodness, feeling. Did you feel it prior to that somewhat.

Sytske – Yes, unfortunately. It was common. especially in like a more well off religious family to be shamed for like oh, good girls, don’t do that, and good girls do this. So I would say that was kind of

a part of me, even before that, but at that point it kind of became attached to my same-sex attraction.

I did still have this inkling that like just I think shame when you, when you use shame as a parenting tool. It’s effective, but it also makes your kid feel like there’s something wrong with them.

Meagan – Yeah.

Sytske – So I do think I kind of had that before.

Meagan – Yeah. So it sounds like, maybe prior to that, like you mentioned earlier. Maybe some of the

that message that you were bad with, or the the the feeling of void of goodness that you had, was more tied to you mentioned earlier. You felt your values.

your value, your personal value and your worth were tied to your dedication. So it was directly related to

how kind of your religiosity maybe.

Sytske – Yeah, my like, my goodness, like

like I had to do certain things in order to be good, you know.

Meagan – Right, so.

Sytske – To have worse. Yeah.

Meagan – Tied to your actions, to your observances, to your behaviors and whatnot.

Sytske – Yes.

Meagan – Maybe the quote, unquote quality and frequency, and and such. But then, when you were in high school and you read this with your family.

then maybe another layer.

Sytske – Yeah. And it it was almost like. Oh, that’s what’s bad about me. Because when you’re a kid and you’re feeling like there’s something wrong with me. You can’t really pinpoint what it is. It’s just an effect of like the way that you’re being treated. And so then.

once I read this chapter. It was kind of like, oh, that’s what’s bad about me. That’s why I feel bad about myself. You know.

Meagan – That’s really a a really important point you just made. When you’re a kid, you can’t really pinpoint where or why some of these feelings are coming up for you.

I think that’s especially good to to hear you. You express that because. sometimes those in the queer community have been questioned how they could possibly no how they felt at maybe a younger age, or they question maybe some folks question why

so many more people are identifying as queer. And I use queer as a general umbrella

when really it’s it’s been a natural part of that teenage, adolescent earlier year development process, that process of

becoming more connected to yourself and and learning more about yourself, and understanding yourself a little bit better.

And we just have more tools. Now, more acceptance, more discussion in general around.

Sytske – More language.

Meagan – More language.

Sytske – Reading. Yeah.

Meagan – Exactly. And so that’s so good for you to be able to have that awareness and share that because I think this is really helpful, especially for parents who.

I think you and I grew up in a similar generation, who maybe have kids and struggle with well, how can they know that, you know? Or how can they think that that’s

who they are right now.

Sytske – Yeah. And and when I was younger. and I’ve heard this from a lot of people, my age, it was just like. I’m different. But you can’t really put your finger on it, because the way that people think like you grow up in this

society, where I mean I call it heteronormative society. But like, you know, the things you see on TV and the things that people talk about. And it’s just so normal to them because it’s part of them, and for you it’s just like that doesn’t

sit right with me. It doesn’t fit me, but you can’t really pinpoint like I would never as as a kid, I never would have thought that has anything to do with my sexuality.

Meagan – Yeah, but.

Sytske – I was just different, like I thought different than people you know.

Meagan – Yeah, I think when things. when mainstream culture or mainstream society, or our communities within which we we live and we breathe, and we associate right.

whatever they’re deem doing seems to be at least as as a teen or a young adult right? That seems to be the perceived Norm. Unless folks are talking about it, or unless

people are sharing their hearts. you are going to fill different inside. You are going to feel like there’s something quote wrong about you.

One of my goals of this podcast. Is to normalize faith journeys that they’re all different. They’re all unique and beautiful and special.

So you’ve talked about kind of the the early beginnings of your faith journey right? Maybe maybe the foundation that your parents helped you to lay

Most people I’ve talked with about faith journeys find something happens. It can be a significant event, a realization their reality that just doesn’t align with maybe what they had been taught. They experience what I call a pivot in their faith journey, or maybe a shift, or people can use whatever word describes it best for them.

But I would love if you know you can think back. And when did you notice? Maybe wait a minute.

This is, I’m not wrong, or I’m not bad. I’m just seeing things differently, and maybe the perception or what’s being taught is could be, could have, you know, do well with some fine tuning or some rethinking

can you think of, you know, a time, or more than one, where you have experienced that kind of a shift.

Sytske – Yeah, for me. It was like a huge moment.

and and I’ll I’ll ex, you know. Talk about that. But it’s kind of like when I look back. It’s like who I was before this moment, and who I was after this moment, were like different, you know. So it was a huge pivot for me. So let’s see.

after college

I I dutifully got married to a man in the Temple and started having kids.

and I look back on myself at that time, and that’s kind of when, like my lights went out, I just started to feel dead inside.

I I kept trying to do all the things that made me feel good as a kid cause. When I was being obedient as a kid there was like praise, and there was attention, and there was rewards and

you know. And then I became an adult, and I was still doing all those things. But I was

like it. All the things I was doing, I was promised would bring the fruits of the spirit into my life, but I was not experiencing any of that.

And I figured like once again. I figured it’s because I was bad, like I was void of goodness. There was something wrong with me. This worked for everyone else, but it wasn’t working for me, because there’s something wrong with me. I was beyond the reach of the spirit.

But still I kept trying like I just kept trying to do those things, cause that’s all I knew, and I was told if I just kept going and tried harder

and also, if it was me, if there was something wrong with me, then maybe I could be better and do better, and finally figure it out.

So I’m you know, raising my kids, not feeling a lot of

light or life in my day to day just kind of doing the things. And I I’m not proud of the way I was raising my kids at that time.

I was just kind of trying to create replicas of the perfect Mormon child. Because that’s how I was raised, you know.

Meagan – Right.

Sytske – But, luckily for them and for myself. my youngest child, Griffin. was born with low functioning autism and we figured that out pretty early. I think he was diagnosed at 15 months

And all of a sudden my entire paradigm of the purpose of life, like unraveled in a matter of weeks because I started thinking about his future.

And I was like, Wait, he won’t serve a mission. He’s not gonna get married. He won’t have his own kids raise his own little Mormon family. Everything that I thought was necessary

for a life to have value in the eyes of God. like I knew he couldn’t do that.

So then that just kind of like dissolved my, this this idea that you know the whole purpose of life was to do all the things you know.

Meagan – Yeah, no keep. That’s.

Sytske – Yeah, me to keep going. I can keep going.

Meagan – Yeah, I I mean. what? What a huge realization like, what a huge pivot all of these boxes that you had been raised, that you the proverbial boxes that you needed to check, and that you had been raising your kids to.

you know, also do those things. It was very obvious that this was not going to be

a path for for Griffin.

Sytske – Right.

Meagan – It couldn’t be.

Sytske – Yeah. And I was so like immersed in that idea that

I like, I really as hard as it is to have a special needs, child.

I really see him as like a miracle in my life and my family’s life.

which is like rippled out into my extended family. so I just, I see, like his

presence in my life, and my family’s life is a huge miracle like. Without that moment

I don’t know if I would be who I am today.

Meagan – Tell me more about that. What do you mean by that? Without that moment, without this miracle, you don’t know if you would be who you are today.

Sytske – Well, I was just. I was just chugging along, you know, like I I felt like

I felt like a zombie like I was kind of dead inside, but I was just going through the motions of life.

You know that. I don’t know. If you remember that talk I was doing the dance steps without the music.

And it was just like it wasn’t a life. It was no way to live, you know.

and I don’t know what else would have snapped me out of that cause like my being. Lgbtq. Didn’t come forward for me until after I had already started on this journey.

So I needed, like a huge catalyst to snap me out of that mindset.

Meagan – And Griffin was that catalyst.

Sytske – Yeah. Yep.

Meagan – So what specifically, do you remember changing?

Well.

Sytske – That’s the thing like this was what I knew. I had the path like I had the path all laid out for me. I just kind of had to follow it. All the things I was taught since I was young growing up in the church, and my, you know, parents modeled the example of the path.

So when this, when I realized the path, wouldn’t work for Griffin. at the same time, I kind of thought

I I mean. I questioned if the path would. I? I knew the path wasn’t working for me, too, like I felt that I was doing it, but it wasn’t bringing any joy or the fruits of the spirit into my life. So I think it just kind of helped me to like acknowledge. Yeah, it’s not working for me, either, you know, and I felt so lost because it was the only direction I had.

I was 35 years old when this happened, and I started seeking like I started really seeking from God for the 1st time cause before everything had been handed to me like I didn’t really need to figure things out on my own.  It was just like it’s in the Handbook. It’s in the Scriptures. It’s in all the lesson manuals, you know, so I didn’t really have a personal relationship with God. so I guess. like. I thought I knew what Faith was before.

But I quickly realized that what I had was certainty. Like I knew what to do. I knew where it was going to leave me which is not faith to me. Now faith is like you have no clue. You don’t know where you’re going. Faith is more like you trust in your relationship with God. not in a past. If that makes sense. So I guess. losing this certainty for me. Brought a lot of fear like it filled me with fear, like fear of the unknown and fear of like.

What if I do it wrong? Like? All of a sudden I had to rely on myself instead of on all these instructions I’d been given. and I don’t think I was developed enough as a person to feel safe relying on myself that way. So I just. I sought a lot like I just I tried to listen to the spirit and what it led me to, and obviously, when when God dropped this bomb on me.

He brought people into my life mentors that could guide me like he didn’t leave me alone. I just had to

listen to those promptings of like who to reach out to and and just it almost. I just had to like, be willing to receive what people were offering, because I felt like

I didn’t really do anything. The people just came into my life. and I see that as the hand of God like he, he was leading me, I it became easy to trust

that he would show me my next step, because he just kind of took over at that point. yeah, I I just kind of surrender to the experience. I don’t know. I would often feel

I would start feeling really expansive about something new I was learning. and then, like my fears would all of a sudden say, well, what if you’re being deceived, or this person isn’t Mormon? So

you know you shouldn’t be listening to them, or you know, even even the very elect will be deceived. So maybe this Mormon is deceived like I started to become filled with fear

when I would learn something really cool that was like expanding my heart and soul, and then it would quickly shift to the like exact opposite of the love and connection to humanity. I was feeling.

All of a sudden they would just feel like confined and constricted and like scared. And

I realized after that happened a bunch I was like, I don’t want my fears to control me or guide my decisions like mentally, I did not want to choose that, but emotionally, it was happening over and over again.

So I actually bought a bracelet that said, No fear, just faith.

and any time that I would feel this fear and become filled with fear. I would just look down at my bracelet, and I would take a deep breath.

I would say, Okay. and I learned how to like, transmute fear into faith, and just kind of let go of the fear, and then just start trusting, like trust this path that God was taking me on.

you know, even if I didn’t get the validation of other people like I used to.

Meagan – Hmm.

Sytske – I just kind of had. It was just me and him, you know, like I just had to really start to believe in myself and in the inspiration I was receiving, and then the things that he was teaching me, one on one.

Meagan – This is so. So interesting, so good. Thank you so much for sharing what your experience was like. I just have a couple of questions kind of follow up questions. Yeah.

you said you saw this pattern multiple times, you’d feel something very expansive. You you would feel expansive about something new you were learning.

and it would feel good. But then, almost immediately. you would feel this doubt. These fears come over, and you would question it like, what if I’m being deceived.

and so on. How did you become aware that these, in fact. where thoughts that were generated from this fear you were feeling, because it sounds like.

maybe@firstst Anyway, you were believing them as true, or at least giving some

credit to them like, Oh, yeah, that that could be. Oh, dear! I got it, you know I should step back. I should stop going in this direction.

That’s that’s huge awareness. And I think some shy away from leaning into this idea that wait a minute. Well.

Sytske – Feel like it’s a warning from the spirit.

Meagan – Right.

Sytske – Yeah.

Meagan – What was that process like for you? How did you become aware that these, in fact, were statements that were

completely coming from a place of fear in your mind.

Sytske – You know there were. I think there’s a talk by Elder Ukdorf. That

I think it was. I think fear is in the title. I can’t remember what the title is, but he specifically talked about fear

and like being parented or guided by leaders through like fear tactics.

and I think it just like it like a light bulb went on like

that’s been my my experience with parenting and in the church

and you know just the I think Elder Uddorf, the way he talked about it shed light on like. That’s not

the way that it works temporarily. but it doesn’t change people

is kind of like his message. And I think it helped that. It was Elder Egdorf, because I think

he is someone who motivates out of love like he when he expresses love, and he believes in us. And I think that’s a very

that kind of motivation feels good. And then just the strict opposite of what he was talking about. Like those fear tactics. I just recognized it, and I recognized the difference.

and I recognize that God leads with love, and He believes in us, and He doesn’t

try to scare us into doing what is right. And so I think, on a mental level.

I just kind of realized that. you know they say perfect love cast without fear.

And I just kind of realized they’re opposites, and, like God, is a God of love. And so fear would be like a tactic of virtual of Satan. And so, if I’m letting fear guide my choices.

am I really following the journey that God is putting forth before me? And I knew that I wouldn’t be like I would be

off track again. And so I yeah, I don’t know. And I think at this time I was also studying

like what the ego is.

Meagan – Hmm.

Sytske – And I think some of the things I read would say, as you become more like awake and aware and spiritual like your ego is gonna try to hold on because it wants to have control like

your ego. Is your mind wanting to control your life? So like, you want to be able to have control. You want to be able to like, know what’s happening, know what’s coming?

Just that certainty. So I think part of me also knew those when those fears come up. It’s my ego trying to hold on, because my ego doesn’t want to let go.

And recognizing that I was like, Yeah, I do. It was hard, but I was like, I do want to do this, even if it’s hard.

Meagan – What a helpful connection to make that your ego is going to just grip onto those things set up to that point.

You have understood to be certain. letting go of that, and allowing a feeling that feels maybe unsafe at first, st

I think sometimes we and we can equate that to bad or making a wrong choice.

But just because we feel I’ve learned this for myself, just because we feel discomfort

doesn’t mean there’s a loss of feeling the spirit. Those are 2 completely different things.

right? that could actually be what is guiding you in a different direction.

I’ve I’ve learned to reframe how I view feelings in general as a life coach. There’s not good feelings and bad feelings. I just kind of view feelings as teachers.

Whatever I’m feeling is, what is it trying to teach me? What is it trying to tell me? What am I? What can I learn from this?

versus? This is a bad choice, or this is not the right path.

Sytske – Yeah, something else that really helped me also during that time. because I was really developing my ability to discern. you know, because before my.

my authority figure was always what decided what was right and wrong for me. So I didn’t really develop the skill.

And so I was developing that ability and something I recognized, and I think I read this in a book, or someone said it like one of my mentors might have said it, and it just stuck with me. But

If you feel a sense of urgency like I have to get this right right now, or I have to do this thing right now.

God is like endlessly patient and long suffering, and He gives us, like more than one or 2 or 3 chances to get something right. He gives us like

77 chances, you know. And so anytime I felt like. I like that sense of urgency, of just like I have to convince this person, or I have to.

You know, do this thing right now. I just learned to recognize that as not helpful. Instead of letting that be

like, make me do the thing that it’s trying to get me to do. I just stopped. And I was like, Oh, I’m feeling a sense of urgency that must not be right.

I think it’s hard to make that shift, but once I made that shift, it just made everything like slow down.

Meagan – sometimes I wonder if that feeling of urgency, the underlying feeling is it’s fear-based.

Sytske – Yeah, it’s like an anxiety like a really intense anxiety.

Meagan – that’s a really good point. I have learned that there are no deadlines with God. there’s no race there’s no rush

wherever a person is at in their belief is okay. He’s not gonna take it personally, or they are not going to take it personally.

Sytske – He just knows. Yeah, they just know that we are ready for what we’re ready for. And like we learn upon line. And sometimes we’re just not ready, and I don’t think they take offense to that, you know.

Meagan – Noel.

Sytske – And it’s changed the way that I parented my own kids because it helps me relax

and just stop like worrying and pushing them to do. What I think they need to do is the right thing, because I’m like, well.

you know, they’ll figure it out, and if they don’t figure it out now they’ll figure it out a year or 2 for years from now, like it’s just helped me to relax.

Meagan – That’s so healthy on on a spiritual health. you know, level, on mental and emotional health.

That’s just a healthier approach. You’re not going to learn things under pressure.

A. And you certainly won’t internalize them and and keep them in your heart and understand them.

Sytske – Yeah, like it. It can control you in the moment, but it won’t ever transform you. And I think that’s what

the goal is to like, transform ourselves and to grow into someone who

has different character attributes not just like do the right thing, you know.

Meagan – Yeah. So a little bit ago, you mentioned when you realized

that losing that certainty did bring on fear, and that you were going to have you realized you had to. You were going to have to rely on yourself.

But yet you weren’t developed enough as a person to be able to run. Rely on yourself. I mean, obviously, you have

developed more as a person you mentioned how you don’t look necessarily outside to authority. That’s what you were taught to do

growing up, and in your earlier years, young adult years.

and and a little beyond. But what? What is different now like? Can you pinpoint or or share things that are different now that have helped you to rely more on yourself, that have.

you know, as you said, you have experienced more self-development. I guess.

Sytske – Yeah, this really goes into my Lgbtq journey and like coming to terms with my identity as a gay woman, because

I think part of me didn’t trust there was some internalized homophobia because of that miracle of forgiveness chapter.

And I didn’t really trust myself I couldn’t trust myself, because homosexuals are evil, and if deep down, that’s a part of me like I can’t trust myself.

And so

Meagan – A home.

Sytske – I had to. Well, okay. So when when I had

like, when the whole foundation crumbled and all the check boxes like just fell and disintegrated, vanished. I was like, well, if there’s no check boxes like, what what does God care about like? What does he want from us, you know.

And the 1st thing that he started to teach me was like identity development, like he taught me like

it. Really, it started with my kids. It was like, what’s unique about each one of your kids like, how are they different from each other? Because before I was like.

they were just all fitting this mold, and it didn’t matter if they were different, because they were all going to become the same.

You know.

Meagan – But.

Sytske – So the the journey that God took me on was like, well, what what about this kid like? What’s cool about this kid, or what’s hard for this kid that’s not hard for that kid. And

so he really started to teach me that, like there are, we are all unique and, like his creations, are diverse

on purpose and understanding. Those differences are beautiful, and that’s a necessary part of like understanding and development. And so, as I was going through that journey with my kids. I was also doing some self discovery like, Oh, well, what’s my personality? How am I different than my kids in this way.

and at 1st it was fun, for like 5 min. and then all of a sudden, it was like this thing I buried so long ago about me falling in love with women. It was like coming to the surface, because that’s like a big part of my personality is like

I love big. And I had just kind of shut my heart off and so I didn’t have to deal with this part of me and

so the more I was like expanding myself and learning how to love my kids and learning how to love others. I was like, oh, no, I’m falling in love with women again, you know, like my heart’s open, and I I love to love, and

and I don’t know what to do with this now. And so, because I was like letting go of fear. I was like, Okay.

can’t be afraid of this. I just need to. It is what it is. Let’s figure it out, you know.

And so a lot of my seeking and a lot of my questions were, trying to figure out like, well.

okay. So obviously, I’m gay, like. I just had to admit that to myself. And then, now, what.

Meagan – Art.

Sytske – What do I do? yeah, it was really hard to like, make that connection like, okay.

Me, falling in love with women means I’m gay like I had to overcome a lot of mental

homophobia to like make that connection. And then the 1st person I told was my best friend at the time.

and that was terrifying. I think she already knew. So it wasn’t a big deal for her, but

it was terrifying for me. And then the more people I told after that, like, the more I just kind of settled into it, like, okay, this is okay, you know.

Meagan – Did you tell your husband? Yes.

Sytske – So I told my husband, like the I think the next day after after I told my best friend cause I just thought he really needs to know this about me, you know, cause we were already kind of struggling in our marriage, and

I mean, at that time we weren’t struggling as much, I think, the more the more I became my true self, the harder our marriage became, because I was.

I was filling a role in our marriage like the 1st 7 years of our marriage. He’s like that was the best time of my life, you know, and I was just like folding into this role of wife and and homemaker, and and just kind of propping up his personality in his life, and it was great for him.

So, as I like became my own person. More it was, there was more conflict like I had my own opinions all of a sudden, and.

Meagan – We had.

Sytske – Discussions, you know. anyways. So yes. IE. I did start telling more people, but I also I was still very dedicated to the church and the doctrine that marriages between a man and a woman. So, even though I was gay.

this did not change anything like it was going to be something I talked about, and something I figured out about myself

and something I wasn’t ashamed of anymore. But I was still, gonna you know, work on my marriage and

was not going to ever act on it. So that’s kind of where I was at this time.

and it took another 7 years, and as God was just kind of walking me down the path of

faith, expansion, and self-discovery, you know. Eventually

God was able to get through to me and say, You know this is not living in alignment with how I created you.

and you are still in some ways feeling dead inside, like you’re not thriving. You’re surviving.

Meagan – So say that one more time you said eventually you

you were. Your heart was open to the message God was sharing, that this

is not in alignment with how I created you. Can you share a little bit more about that?

Sytske – Yeah, I feel like during this time he was sending that message like I I did it here and there, a little

like. you know you’re trying to live with integrity, because that was a big.

I studied integrity like, what does integrity mean? That was a big thing for me.

and it was just kind of this little reminder as I was. I was doing great like. I was growing in a lot of ways, becoming more Christ like becoming more loving, becoming more open and vulnerable.

But there was just this little, you know, every once in a while, like you’re still not living in integrity like there’s still something that you’re out of alignment.

You’re pretending to be something you’re not. and unfortunately, that was not good for my husband either for him to be in a marriage with someone who did was not attracted to him, and didn’t desire him in that way. It took a hit on his self esteem, too, you know. So it wasn’t just that I was. I was living out of alignment, but it was affecting him.

In negative ways, you know, and so I think I was really I was very open to the expansiveness of everything I was learning. But I was not gonna go against the doctrine of the church. I was gonna keep my temple recommend. I was, gonna you know I didn’t. I had no desire to

ever step away from any of that. So I I kind of I’ve finally ended up between this rock and this hard place and this. This was like 2021, I think.

Meagan – So recent.

Sytske – Yeah, yeah, I was still married, and I was still dedicated and working on my marriage. And I was. I was

an Lgbtq advocate, like I was outspoken. I was out in my ward but there was this

the the the inspiration. I was getting more and more and more like stronger and stronger, was like you

need to date women. And I was pushing back just as hard. I was like, Nope, Nope, like

that is not the profits. And Apostle say, that’s not okay. I’m not going to do this, you know.

And so the dissonance just got like harder to live with. And I I started feeling like

I had let go. Of all the shame like there was no more shame with me, and it was so peaceful, and then, like for 6 months, the shame started creeping up again, and I was like, I don’t even know where this is coming from or what it’s about, but it just like I started just feeling like

heavy and like I didn’t trust myself. I didn’t know what I was doing. And so I was I I went back to like.

I’m gonna ask someone else because I can’t figure this out on my own. And so I asked for a priested blessing and

The blessing you know, wouldn’t have meant anything to anyone else but the words that I needed to hear

you know, it came. And and basically in the blessing he said. He knew I was really struggling. This was this was a friend.

He didn’t know what I was struggling with. He just could tell. I was like not in a great place. and he said, you have been seeking answers.

and I know that it’s and he didn’t really know any details. But he said, I know that it’s hard

to not receive answers. And then he stopped himself, and he said, Wait. it’s hard to not accept the answers that are being given to you.

and he just shifted it in that way, and it was just like that, was it, you know, like I knew at that point that God was the one that was trying to get me to take this path, because this I trusted the priesthood. I trusted the priesthood blessing, and because it was coming from

that source I knew it was from God, and I knew that God was saying, you’re not accepting the answer that I’m trying to give you.

And so at that point I was like, oh, my gosh! I have to date women! This is crazy, you know, and and we we had been going to marriage counseling for

like 3 years and making 0 progress. And so I think you know, my husband and I both kind of knew it was ending soon. And so we I just with this decision. I was like, well.

I guess I’m we’re gonna get divorced. And I guess I’m gonna date women, which was just like mind blowing for me.

Meagan – thank you so much for sharing that

for the purposes of our listeners, who

or of other faiths, because this the reach of my podcast does go beyond the Lds faith.

Can you just briefly share what you mean by a priesthood blessing.

Sytske – Oh, yeah.

So in the Lds church,

we believe that. Okay. So the men

in the church are ordained to what they call the priesthood which we call the power of God, and they have special access to like God’s

will for others like God’s words. What we also have things like called patriarchal blessings. In our church, where patriarch is.

you know, set apart to be able to give someone a specific blessing for things in their life. And so it kind of falls along that line of they can receive instruction from God for you.

Meagan – Okay, thank you so much.

That’s so much change. That’s so much.

that’s so interesting. How you were resisting

accepting those answers.

But then, as soon as because they were so different than what you had been taught growing up, and in this case taught, is really another word for condition to believe were the right answers.

Sytske – Yeah.

Meagan – And and the and then the freedom that you felt when you just finally leaned into them and let go of resisting.

Sytske – Yeah, I have not really felt fear or shame since that moment, like someone asked me the other day, like.

When did you finally just fill that piece. And that was it. Like when I just accepted. I guess

I’m gonna date women now. And that’s like there was just this piece that has just filled me, and there have been hard, hard things in my life since then. My ex husband passed away. I am the sole caregiver of my special needs, child, like my life is really hard.

but I have. That piece has never gone, has never left me like I have so much peace, and I’m strengthened

through all the struggles that I have, and I’m so grateful for that. And really it’s living in alignment like

life is hard. But I am on the path that I’m meant to be on, and I’m experiencing the struggles I meant to experience. I’m not experiencing struggles that are pointless for me.

Meagan – Life is hard, but I am on the path I’m meant to be on. That’s beautiful. I just got chills.

That’s something I respect so much that everybody is on their own unique journey, and I honor, wherever you are at in that journey.

Can you think of anything else that you would like others to know about the uniqueness, maybe even some of the challenges of what it’s like to journey in this space. This intersection of identifying as Lgbtq plus.

and then being a member of in this case, the Lds faith, but that can also be broadened to apply to conservative faith in general.

Sytske – Yeah, something that I’ve dealt with a lot. And it’s kind of come up again recently that I would like to share with people that maybe are not familiar with someone in my issues.

it’s I mean, I get. Why, it happens. But it’s easy for religious. faithful people to see the Lgbtq.

They call it the Lgbtq movement. But like, basically, there’s more Lgbtq people who are coming out and who are living there.

Truth living in alignment, but they call it the Lgbtq movement. They see that as

like Satan’s winning. This is what Satan Satan is bringing this about. You know. More people are coming out. More people are, I mean, I see it as more people are coming out. They see it as more people are becoming gay, and more people are becoming. Trans. But I know that’s always been around. We just haven’t talked about it.

So it’s really difficult. It’s really painful for me when people look at me. and they either think you’re being deceived by Satan, or

you are promoting Satan’s agenda like, how hurtful is that to look at a human like your sister brother

in Christ, and think bad about them! It just feels awful.

Meagan – Especially when you know it’s not true. you know.

Sytske – I don’t know, but I questioned it a lot at the beginning, because I trusted straight people more than I trusted myself or gay people.

you know. So it’s taken me a while to get to the point where that doesn’t make me question myself like, Am I following Satan like? That’s so. And I just my heart breaks for

kids of parents where their parents still hold that belief. And the kids are trying to come out. And it’s like the way their parents see them is like, Oh, you’re just, you know.

You’re just being deceived by Satan, and eventually, like you’ll come back to me. You’ll come back to the church, you’ll see, you know. It’s just so hard.

Meagan – What do you think the key ingredient for you has been to move from you said in the beginning you still question like you would you said you would listen more to straight people than you would

to your own self, I guess. What was the key ingredient to making that shift where you don’t question that. Yeah.

Sytske – It was when the shame finally, like left me because I could always fall back on that shame like, Oh, they’re right like there’s something wrong with me. They can see it now. They’re just pointing it out to me, you know, like I know, there’s something wrong with me. They see it, too. That was kind of my thought back then. When the shame finally left my body

like I didn’t feel it in my blood and my bones anymore. Then I was like.

I am good, like I feel good. I can. I feel love and light like expanding in my body.

So they’re wrong, you know, like I was able to finally see that and feel that and believe that. And you know what was really helpful for me when I was making that shift

is There are certain people on this planet that are sensitive to like energy.

Not all of us are, but the people that are would come up to me, and they would just kind of go like this and go. Oh, your energy feels good like, and people would make comments like that. And I was like, Oh.

and they would feel that about me, even if I was feeling like

I’m toxic, you know. And then they would say, Oh, you’re so good like you just feel good to be around. And those comments I was like, maybe they’re right, you know, it just was helpful for me to like, start to trust myself.

Yeah.

Meagan – so so many questions. And we’ve kind of.

Sytske – Make a 2 h podcast.

Meagan – So I’m trying to surmise. And in my mind. just thank you so much for being so willing to be open. I know this is not easy.

There’s so many moving parts in a faith journey. and identity is one of them. so if there’s what I love what you just said

How you felt light entering your body. You felt expansive. enlarged something along those lines. And you know, right in that moment I thought, that’s what allowing questions does for us.

that’s what allowing the doubt and and and examining it and looking at it, why would I? Why would I have this doubt, or why would this feel like? It doesn’t align with me? Because that’s the moment

that we begin the steps to invite that enlightenment in to put ourselves in a place where we can be expanded.

where we can grow. where we can be illuminated to new ways of thinking, to new ways of of being right. Our thinking is what ultimately will dictate our actions. Right?

I I wanted to to get into. You know, maybe, how your family. You know what their role has been in your journey.

because sometimes I know it is so hard to talk about these things with family. It’s so hard because they are so inextricably, inextricably tied

to us. I mean, not just according to the tenets of our faith. Right? But it’s to our our lived reality we grew with them. We are connected with them. And when I say family, yes, I’m talking about our family of origin, but that does extend out into

are faith families, right? Other communities do you have? Do you have anything you can share with us that comes to mind about that part of your navigating your story.

Sytske – Yeah, I’ll just share a little bit. I think God knew this. My whole family is in Utah, and he moved me to Oregon. That was like. Very big, like

good God, like my husband lost his job, and he couldn’t find a job in Utah, and he was very well qualified and like. He applied for gazillion jobs over 10 months and nothing. And then someone from Oregon like sought him out and offered him a job.

and it was just so obvious, like in a spiritual sense, to me, like I received a confirmation that, like we needed to move to Oregon. So I would say.

God knew that I needed to get away from my family in order to take this journey, like I don’t know if I would have been able to do it while I was still trying to please them and be around them, and

so getting out and getting away from my family, I was able to develop a lot of my own identity. And then I came back to Utah 6 years later and I was a different person. So, coming back to my family.

They just had to get to know me all over again, and it’s it’s it’s affected all of them in different ways. But many of them have expanded their own

faith and identity because they’ve. They see the changes in me, but they also see that I now have my light, like the light that was gone for so long. They see that I’m

I’m living differently, like, even though the way that I’m living looks like against what the Church is teaching, they can see that I have joy and happiness and peace and light

I don’t know they just see it, you know.

Meagan – Yeah. when you say they see that the way you’re teaching or living is against what the Church is teaching. I don’t think we’ve brought this up. But you’re fair. You’re open about. You are in a relationship.

Sytske – Yes.

Meagan – And you are actively participating in the Church.

Sytske – Yes, my words amazing. And her word is amazing. We got lucky. We yeah, we’ve both been to each other’s words. We’ve met each other’s Bishop Ricks. And

yeah, we have. No. there’s no problems.

Meagan – It’s good to make this. Oh, you know. to make this aware, to to share that with others, so that they can be aware

there’s more than one way to live Christ’s gospel. There’s so many ways.

Sytske – Yeah, yeah. And I, I, I really value personal revelation, like, when people come to me and

say, what should I do? I’m kind of a life coach, too. Not a paid life coach, but I was certified, and and people come to me, and people will ask me like, What do you think I should do? And I’m just such a

personal revelation to me is huge. I’m like, do what you feel like you need to do, you know. and we can figure that out for ourselves.

Meagan – Yeah, I think that comes with your personality. People coming to just, you know, seeking you out for insight or offering your your thoughts. It’s a gift.

So last question I always like to ask my guests. You know. certainty is prized in our in our faith, in most conservative faiths right, and to have a doubt.

kind of traditionally or historically, has had a lot of shame attached to it, or reflect, it can be reflective of someone’s worth, or or perceived that way, even though I I now know it, has nothing to do with that.

And so I purposely chose. You know, the title of this podcast to beyond the shadow of doubt.

to go and and seed out in a different way. So my question for you is, what does it mean to you to live beyond the shadow of doubt?

Sytske – I guess to me it means to tolerate, not knowing, being okay with open-ended questions, not needing to know the answers to everything.

It means letting go of the need to be right. And like, we just talked about understanding that what’s right for someone else may not be right for me, and that doesn’t make me wrong.

We’re all just trying to figure it out, and we can love each other

in each of our different paths. One more thing I would say, it means to me is being able to listen and validate other people’s beliefs and experiences, even if I don’t understand or agree with them.

because what they are going through or finding out for themselves doesn’t threaten what I’m figuring out for myself.

Meagan – I love what you said, being able to listen and validate others. Experiences, even if I don’t agree to validate, doesn’t mean that you have to agree. It just means, I validate that you are human being having this experience, and it is hard, or it is enlightening, or it is challenging, or or whatever it might be.

That’s such an important point to make. And I love that. You said that 6 yeah.

Sytske – Sometimes people like doubt that word doubt. Sometimes when people share their experiences, other people are like, Oh, no, you know, they doubt other people’s experiences. And that’s gaslighting. So we don’t doubt other people’s experiences.

Meagan – Most likely, because in their mind they’re shifting to that checklist that they were taught.

Sytske – Yeah. Or if that, if that’s true for them, then that threatens what maybe what might be true for me.

Meagan – Exactly. And so it’s so important to be able to leave space and love that open-ended questions. Be okay with open-ended questions, let go of the need to be right. You said some gems in there. I love that so so much.

Seatska. It has been so fun to have this conversation with you, and to learn more about you.

What a beautiful soul you are! What a beautiful journey! Sometimes hard and challenging, but always enlightening and aligned! I love.

How aligned I can see I can see in your countenance the peace.

the assurance that you have, and that’s you just cannot put a price tag on that.

Sytske – Thank you so much. And I did. Wanna say before I forget.

Meagan – Please.

Sytske – Thank you for the work that you’re doing. I don’t think I could be where I am if it wasn’t for allies. I allies have such a pivotal role in the Lgbtq acceptance because we can accept ourselves. All we want, but, like the Allies, are that bridge between like society, because the Allies are looked at as like normal members of society, and it’s just to me like I have so much gratitude for allies. They

they we couldn’t do this without them. So thank you.

Meagan – Brought tears to my eyes. So welcome. I’m grateful for you, teaching all of us about

what it really means to the authentic and to live an aligned, honest life.

Sytske – Thank you.

Meagan – I think those that identify as like you use the term header on norm normative have a lot to learn about that.

Sytske – Yeah, I mean, that is part of the gift of being queer is we were forced to like develop our identities in a different way.

Meagan – Oh!

Sytske – It’s hard, but it’s also a gift.

Meagan – So beautiful. Well, Sitka, if folks wanted to reach out to you or had questions for you, what would be the best way for them to do that.

Sytske – So I am on Facebook, Seatska Woodhouse, Junior. You could. You can follow my profiles public, and I post quite a bit. You can message me. Whenever people want to reach out, they just reach out on Facebook messenger, and I’m happy to talk to anyone and answer questions. Or

you know people a lot of times will reach out to me for guidance. I’m not great at giving guidance.

but I will help you learn to trust yourself. The other way you can connect with me is I am on the board of Amaz, Lgbtq Ministry, and our website is Emmaus lgbtq.org.

And we also have a Facebook and an Instagram page that you can follow us on. And we do. I do the devotionals once a month, and then we also have family and evenings once a month.

Meagan – Yes. And I actually did one of those devotionals earlier this year. And that’s on my podcast I think January of 2024 is when I released it.

Sytske – Awesome.

Meagan – And I always love to throw out a few questions at the end, for my listeners to get to know seats, get a little bit better.

Sytske – Yeah, fun.

Meagan – Okay. So tell us your favorite book.

Sytske – Oh, my goodness, okay. I love books, but there’s 2 that are like my Bible, so like nonviolent communication by Marshall Rosenberg.

Meagan – Okay.

Sytske – Then the way of integrity by Martha Beck.

Meagan – Oh, okay.

Sytske – Those are like my Bibles for life.

Meagan – Some. Are you an introvert, or would you consider yourself an extrovert?

Sytske – Oh, I am an introvert. If you know Myers Briggs, I am an INFP. Which means I am very. I need my downtime at alone time, but I am so into people. I love people, but if I could do one on one.

that’s better for me.

Meagan – I think that is my 4 digit, my 4 code.

Sytske – Oh, that’d be cool!

Meagan – I think it is because it’s either P. Or J. Right.

Sytske – Yep.

Meagan – I’m not a J. So I think that’s me, too.

Sytske – Rain.

Meagan – That’s so funny. Okay, who is your favorite artist?

Sytske – Oh, I learned to play the guitar in college because I loved Dave Matthews music so lifelong. Lover of Dave Matthews band.

Meagan – Would you hate me if I told you? I just saw him in concert a few weeks.

Sytske – No, that’s amazing I love that. I feel like it dates me when I say that like it makes me people realize how old I am.

Like him.

Meagan – Are you a night owl or a morning lark?

Sytske – I am definitely a night owl.

Meagan – Too. although less so with each passing year.

Sytske – As you get older.

Meagan – You have a celebrity, crush.

Sytske – I do Kristen Stewart but post twilight. Kristen Stewart.

Meagan – I know.

Sytske – I didn’t love her in twilight, but, like the blonde, my, my favorite, like pure Lgbtq movie, is happiest season on Julie with.

Meagan – That is so cute. I’ve seen that.

Sytske – Cute. Maybe.

Meagan – They did a good job and do you do still, or carbonated water? Are you a diet soda fan?

Sytske – Oh, no carbonation for me.

Meagan – Relationship.

Sytske – Water. I I have a very sensitive like my my son did a science experiment with our family, and I’m a super taster, so I have a very sensitive palette, and the tingles with the carbonation is just too much for me.

Meagan – Okay, I will remember that next time I see.

Meagan – and finally tell us the first, st furthest place you have traveled.

Sytske – Oh, I’m not super adventurous, so the furthest place would probably be Hawaii.

Meagan – Hawaii. Hawaii is a fun place.

Sytske – Hawaii wasn’t part of America. It would be like California But Hawaii is awesome. I love it.

Meagan – This has been a pleasure. Thank you so much again, for taking time out of your schedule and for being here with me and with us today. Your story is going to touch so many lives. I know it.

Sytske – Thank you. This was a wonderful experience. I really appreciate it.

Meagan – So glad.