Episode 125: Seeing through a rainbow filter w/ Jill Mortensen

Meagan – Hello, everyone! Welcome to today’s episode of Beyond the shadow of doubt. I’m Megan Skidmore, your host and I have someone I consider a dear friend, and yet this is our first time actually conversing, albeit virtually I have Jill Mortensen with me today. So welcome.

jillm- Thank you, Megan. I’m so excited to be here.

Meagan – I am excited for you to be here as well. I love having a variety of guests on this podcast because what that means is, there is a greater variety of voices, and I I kind of see myself as a story collector. I love collecting these stories of faith. that those who come on share. They’re all unique. They’re all different. and I honor every single one of them. Your path is for you. My path is for me and all of those that are listening. Your path, your individual path is for you, and I really shed. or at least strive to shed, that S. Versus them mentality. And just let’s just meet at the bridge. And let’s just share and be human beings and listen to each other’s stories, because really our stories are they come from? That’s what this is all about. So I first connected with you several years ago. We’re both parents of Kiddos who identify as Lgbtq plus. So that’s the the common thread. Pretty sure. I don’t remember if it was in a parent support group, or maybe on Instagram, or a variety of things. That we connected, and I’ve loved watching your story unfold, at least from the time that I connected with you, and learning some about it before then, too. So what a retreat for those that are listening to get to hear it! And.

jillm- Thank you. Pleasure to be here, and to be able to have this conversation. So thank you.

Meagan – Yeah. So to just get started. I wanna turn the time over to you to share with us your background story, your kind of your origin story, your upbringing, your family of origin, your faith of origin, you know. I know you’re married, and you have children. You know your education, just all those things that kind of makeup you your story, and and ultimately brought you to the the point that you’re at. I know there’s a lot of moving parts there, but just the things that you feel would be significant. Yeah.

jillm- Absolutely. Thank you.

Meagan – Where.

jillm- I’m fifth generation Mormon, like full, you know. Pioneer stock on both sides.

Meagan – See? Yeah.

jillm- I arrive by handcart, basically. So I’m very proud of my heritage. I I love my Mormon family, my Mormon history, my Mormon ancestors. They were tough, they had grit, they had determination, and I often fill their their presence in my journey in not maybe an expected way, but.

Meagan – So cool.

jillm- That the perseverance and the trailblazing, and all of those things that I really.

Meagan – That’s gonna make me cry. That’s so cool. I love that so much.

jillm- Yeah. Yeah. So I just think, you know, we all have our own unique journeys. I’m not pushing a hand cart. I’m I’m blazing my own trial, and making a safe, safer world for my child. So it’s not an easy path. There’s lots of funds and and rocks along the way that you have to push through, and and there’s not a clear path ahead. You have to really forge that for yourself.

Meagan – That’s.

jillm- Your own family. Yeah, so.

Meagan – Analogy. You’re a pioneer, for sure.

jillm- Oh, thank you. I you know it’s been There’s been a lot of discomfort, a lot of heartbreak, a lot of grief. And I still wouldn’t trade it for the world. I would do it again in a heartbeat. So to kind of back up a little bit. Obviously born and raised. Mormon. Very orthodox family. We did everything you would expect right, you know, to church attendance. Yeah, women’s I was. I I feel like, and it’s I don’t ever fault my parents, because I know they were doing what they thought was best for me, but I felt as the oldest a heavy burden of expectation that I was supposed to be a certain way, and do certain things. And I I’m in any ground 9, and I’m very stubborn. So whatever you tell me to do, I will do the opposite and do it even harder than anyone else. So when everyone was telling me, you know, I aged 19200, it’s time to settle down. I’m like I’m absolutely not like. There’s a whole wide world out there, and I’m gonna go and see it. So I went and got my education. I got a bachelors in communications from University of Utah.

Meagan – Okay.

jillm- And then I got my dream job. I was a insurance company marketing rep, and I had the territory of all of Utah. Orange County, California. Best shopping in the world. San Antonio, Texas.

Meagan – Okay.

jillm- And Austin, Texas. and in addition to those places where I traveled, I was able to travel to georgia, which is where the home base of the company was, and several other states, so I was able to kind of see the country a little bit in my in my position, and I worked in that job for about 4 years. and in addition to that, I had a lot of disposable income. So I was able to play with my friends, and, you know, go on fund vacations and buy what I wanted, and.

Meagan – That sounds fantastic.

jillm- So honestly like for me. I I can’t imagine doing it any other way, because I was able to do a lot of self discovery. Find out who I am, before I was able to comfortably choose a partner that I was compatible with, and fortunately I chose the very best. So, my husband, Mark, we actually met in college. and we knew each other for 5 and a half years before we ever went on our first date we were best friends for that long.

Meagan – Wow!

jillm- So our our love story is one of my favorites, because it was a very much a hearing met Sally. We just had this foundation of trust and friendship, and we saw each other through a lot of hard times, and so kind of like. Once the timing was right, the light bulb clicked on, and I was like, Hey, it’s you. So we got married in 2,003. We just had our twentieth last year. and we have 3 beautiful children. My oldest is Sid, and they identify as lesbian and nonbinary, and they use. They then pronouns my second Mitchell he is. He’ll be 17 in August, and he is a sophomore, and then my youngest Ava is 13, and she is in the seventh grade. So I live in St. George Utah absolutely love it here. Sunny Red Rock country.

Meagan – Yeah, I don’t know.

jillm- Love to go hiking, be outdoors. I primarily stay at home. I volunteer on a couple of different boards that are affiliated with Lgbtq community. I was the advisory board chair for encircle St. George. and now I am serving on the board of Directors for Pride of 7 Utah, which is a local nonprofit. Here.

Meagan – Okay, that one’s a new one for me I’ve heard of in circle, but not the same.

jillm- Yeah. Yeah. Pride of Southern Utah is,

Meagan – Right? Okay. I’m sorry. My, hear?

jillm- Yeah, I’ve heard of something. Utah is probably in the last 10 years it’s been around so.

Meagan – That’s great!

jillm- Yeah, I love it. I just love being involved in that community. They just bring me so much joy.

Meagan – Yeah, I have found the same. So I’ve become involved in organizations as well.

jillm- Right, yeah.

Meagan – So. You’re from. I think you told me this before we hit record. You’re from.

jillm- Okay.

Meagan – Ache.

jillm- Yes, I grew up in Salt Lake, and so when I got married, we moved here to St. George.

Meagan – You’ve been there for a while. Then.

jillm- 21 years. Yeah.

Meagan – Oh, okay.

jillm- Yeah.

Meagan – Pretty much the majority.

jillm- This is this is home! Now.

Meagan – Home. This is home. You’ve grown roots, and you have folks that you’ve probably known for quite some time. There.

jillm- Yeah, yeah, we do have. Most of my family is still in Salt Lake. But we do have Mark’s mom, who lives here quite close by, actually, that we’re kind of helping to care for her right now. Yeah. So other than that, I mean, I have a lot of friends that I consider my family here that have really been chosen family.

Meagan – That’s wonderful. Especially on this journey to have that. That’s a gift.

jillm- It is. Yeah.

Meagan – We can get to a little bit more of that in a minute. So so you are self described as fifth generation Mormon, Lds charge. and I know how that feels. There’s a lot of feeling of connection to your ancestors and also to those that are currently living. And sometimes with that comes a maybe an unspoken expectation, or maybe self imposed to some extent. you know, pressure, whatever I’m I’m curious to know a little bit more about your faith journey. You know, having been raised the way that with with the teachings, the tenets of faith that we were that you are when you’re when you’re born into Lds. Faith. it can be for lack of a better word for right now, tricky to.

jillm- Over.

Meagan – To figure.

jillm- Sounds like you shouldn’t.

Meagan – To do to figure out what to do with new information, particularly so when it it it directly contradicts what you have been taught, and it’s it’s a lot of things for a lot of different people. But I I want to hear from you like what that has been like. how you navigate that space. When you know you, you come from a certain family background faith background. And you. you have this information that you know I’m gonna you know, assume felt true to you. Maybe not in the beginning. Just can you share a little bit? Faith journey has been like as it relates to being a mom of a queer kiddo, but also, I mean, sometimes other factors come into play, too.

jillm- Absolutely. It’s a very layered and complex and nuanced journey, for sure.

Meagan – I like layered, layered.

jillm- Yeah.

Meagan – Right.

jillm- Very, very later. The sometimes the way I like to think of it is, when I was born I was handled a box. and the box was beneficial for me when I was younger, because it had boundaries. and it kept me safe. As I grew and evolved, met new people explored, new ideas became more curious. The bots started to feel less safe and more constricting. It felt like it was keeping me from rowing. And so When I began the journey of dipping my toe outside of the box, I started with listening to just every audio book I could get a hold of right of just like starting with Rene Brown. The power of vulnerability and vulnerability is not something that was ever modeled to me. In my family of origin we are traditionally. I don’t want to use this disparagingly, but, like perfectionism, friends in my family, it just says it’s like every appearances are everything, and a lot of that comes from Mormon culture as well, which is unfortunate.

Meagan – That’s what I was. Gonna say, I I don’t think that’s atypical like I don’t.

jillm- Okay.

Meagan – Just a a Jill’s family thing.

jillm- Yeah. So I I started to really want to work on challenging some of those. Beliefs and and ways of thinking as I got into my forties, and when my husband told me in about 2014 that he was having some questions about the church.

Meagan – Okay.

jillm- I. My immediate reaction was, the room was spinning like, Okay, what? What’s happening? Like I. I’ve only ever known this way. And so this new way is, feels so scary and unfamiliar and destabilizing. that my first reaction was fear.

Meagan – Yeah.

jillm- And panic and I I felt really strongly in that conversation with him that I needed to prioritize and validate his concerns and his feelings, and what he was going through versus adding a layer of shame on top of what he was already feeling for for breaking the the deal. Right cause. You know you you get married in the Temple, and there’s this whole thing of like we’ve we’ve committed to this, and we’re doing this together forever. And so I knew that there were a lot of whether he expressed them or not, a lot of emotions there, that he was feeling very vulnerable to share that with me. And so I really wanted to just take a step back from my own fear and honor that he was sharing it with me, because that’s that’s a gift in itself that he felt safe enough to do that. So. as he started to share some of his concerns, they were more around the truth. Claims of the Church. Just he was discovering new information that wasn’t aligning with what he previously knew. and for him it just was a real sense of betrayal. And this is his story. But I’m just sharing just just in perspective of like. where can how? I also am.

Meagan – It also flowed over into your store.

jillm- Yeah, it informs how I.

Meagan – Because, in order to like you said which I really appreciate this, you prioritized validating his feelings and his experience, and I think some people see validating as agreeing with, whereas validating is acknowledging you’re human. I can see you have actual questions. You have actual concerns that’s real for you, even though you didn’t have them, maybe at the time right to dismiss those would be invalidating meaning. No, I don’t believe you are having this experience when it really has nothing to do with agree or disagree.

jillmo- Absolutely. And I think, coming back to that, probably later in our discussion, validating and believing people when they tell you who they are, what they’re feeling is so so critical and so anyways, that I’m just trying to think where to go next, because it was a whole grieving process for me of his belief, which he eventually did. I was in a really dark place for probably about 3 months, where I just I couldn’t. I just couldn’t like see a life where we weren’t on the same page. I was like, I don’t understand how we’re gonna do this like mix. Faith, marriages are tricky. Very tricky, especially in Highland religions like Mormonism.

Meagan – It’s a.

jillm- So.

Meagan – A lot of things that are outside of your control. Once that enters the scene.

jillm- Absolutely so I was, you know, still taking the kids to church, and just felt this really like just this burden of sorrow. And I, you know I would go, and people would start to ask me where he was, and and rather than asking him, you know, passive, aggressive, is also a language of Mormons. So I was like, well, if you wanna know that bad, why don’t you go ask him? Because I am doing my best here.

Meagan – That’s fair. That’s a that’s a fair request. It’s his story. It was his story, at least at that point.

jillm- Absolutely. Yeah. So I did my best. You know, we we kind of limped along for for a few months, and then I had this I don’t know. I don’t know what to call it now, because my language for defining spiritual experiences has changed but I had a moment where I I still define it as something that was outside of explanation didn’t come from me. Just remember feeling so sad and just lost, and I just remember, like at the time saying a prayer and just asking God like. what? What do I? How am I gonna do this? Wh? What is what is this gonna look like? And how am I gonna move forward without him by my side? And I just got the most clear impression of how much my husband was loved by God. and it was like the clouds parted. And it was the love wasn’t conditional on his belief in the Church. It was like he is loved period. and that was it. That was the turning point for me. That’s like just was like I felt this burden left off my shoulders of like. I don’t have to fix him. I don’t have to make him something that he’s not. He is perfect exactly as he is. And so. as soon as I felt sort of that, not that I needed permission. But I just needed that confirmation and that comfort to know like, it’s, it’s okay. It’s okay.

Meagan – And I think you needed that was a new thought that maybe you hadn’t. It hadn’t occurred to you before.

jillm– Yeah, yeah.

Meagan – He was loved, regardless.

jillm- Yeah, well, good. So good.

Meagan – Because he is.

jillm- Conditional right. Like we learn conditional love and transactional love and.

Meagan – Yes.

jillm- You do this, and you get this blessing. And it’s this, and so it’s never. It’s never really unconditional, even though a lot of times that word is thrown around. It’s in religion. It’s very conditional.

Meagan – yes, very.

Meagan – like, you use the word deal earlier or transactional. Yeah.

jillm- Mean.

Meagan – That’s that’s beautiful. I love how I am acknowledged that you said you use different spiritual language now, but at the time you offered a prayer, and you felt this burden of sorrow lift and from, and it think you use the word. It came from something outside of you, something greater than you. And I honor that. Jill, that’s part of this journey of taking in new information and and metabolizing it in the way that we know how, and applying it to our lives and and sometimes that means using new language. which I mean, if if we were to rewind, you know, a hundred years to essentially I mean a millennia ago. We have different words to choose from than our ancestors had. and and and we continue to gain new words, and the words that they used at that time don’t necessarily mean the same thing when we use them today. my my point being that it’s hard to actually put words to some things, anyway. So I honor what you are sharing with us from the bottom of my heart. I just I love hearing it.

jillm- Thank you.

Meagan – And I appreciate you sharing how how hard that was for you!

jillm- Thank you to.

Meagan – Navigate, and truly move to a place of just love. I truly believe we cannot go wrong if we lead with love.

jillm- I could not agree more.

Meagan – And so so that kind of was the kind of a catalyst, I guess, for you as well.

jillm- Yeah, yeah, so.

Meagan – Journey to moving to a different place.

jillm- From there. Let’s see, that was roughly right around 2015, which is when the policy of exclusion came out.

Meagan – Okay.

jillm- That was a gut punch and.

Meagan – So.

jillm- Nurse. You don’t know.

Meagan – Yes, yes.

jillm- The policy of exclusion within the Church of Jesus Christ of of Latter Day Saints was. It was November fifth, 2015. I’ll never forget the date because it’s stared into my memory. My! It was leaked. The policy was leaked online, and my husband saw it and read it out loud to me. and I literally thought he was reading for the onion or something I was like. There is no way. This is real. the policy, said. Parents Lgbtq parents.

Meagan – And.

jillm- Children within the Church. The children themselves cannot receive the ordinances of baptism. Was it just baptism?

Meagan – I think it was baptism at that point. So they.

jillm- Couldn’t be baptized unless they disavowed their parents. Lifestyle.

Meagan – I think it was until they were 18, and then they would have to. Yeah.

jillm- They had to wait. 18, and they had to disavow their parents. Day lifestyle, which is just unconscionable. I can’t even find the word for it. It just was like infuriating, and it felt nothing. nothing like the Church that I thought I loved.

Meagan – Yeah, it was one that did not make sense to me either. I was still in kind of a kind of a very is blind faith kind of the way to to describe it. It it hurt my heart, for sure. I yeah, it is in in hindsight as a more evolved person. I it’s unconscionable to think of a child I’m being expected to make that kind of a a choice. That’s I mean, from a psychological ex perspective, you know, from a mental health perspective. That’s that is, talk about a burden that’s a big, huge.

jillm- And.

Meagan – Heavy burden, so that if that was part of the journey, too, that.

jillm- That was a big.

Meagan – Both.

jillm- Crack in my my own shelf. Yeah. and so, and my husband he’s always had a very soft place in his heart for Lgbtq people, because his former stepmother divorced his father because she came out as Lesbian.

Meagan – Okay.

jillm- And so, and and he loves her to the state like always has like she helped raise him so when the policy came out it really affected him in a way that maybe somebody without that connection.

Meagan – Yeah, for sure.

jillm- Might have been easier to sort of not not dismiss it, but not have quite the visceral reaction that he did. So I was, I was deeply affected by that and that that kind of push me into a lot of self reflection and and deep diving on like is these beliefs and these teachings serving me anymore. So I kind of really did like just a really thorough examination of where I was in my faith journey like I just was starting to feel I don’t even wanna call it like questions or doubts, because it was more about like it just didn’t feel right. Well.

Meagan – Me, ask.

jillm- And again against my my heart, and, like my, it felt unaligned with how I saw the world and what I believed about people.

Meagan – So. yeah, you asked yourself, are these beliefs serving me anymore? How hard was that? Or.

jillm- Oh, my gosh! It’s.

Meagan – To ask yourself that.

jillm- Question is terrifying right? Because your whole life in the in the Lds Church you’re taught to like doubt. Your doubts.

Meagan – Yeah.

jillmo- Don’t you know? Like questions are. they say questions are, okay, but they’re not good for you.

Meagan – Conditional. It seems like if they’re the right answer. Then they’re okay, like, there’s usually a right answer. That’s like, sometimes. That’s how it came across to me that there.

jillm- Yeah.

Meagan – There was a right answer for that question.

jillm- And if and if the answer isn’t satisfactory, then just have faith. Which was starting to just not sit right with me, and I was just kind of pushing back on some of the stuff that I was seeing and hearing, you know. So that leads me to my next sort of unexplained outside of me. Inspiration moment that happened when I was out. I was just outside going for a run in the morning, like I always do. And I was listening to a podcast with Glennon Doyle and Oprah they were interviewing Oprah was interviewing, and this was way back. I mean, this was 26.

Meagan – Yeah.

jillm- Team so kind of Pre Glennon fame. anyways. So Oprah was asking her at the time Glenda was involved in a nonprofit organization that provided housing and services for homeless Lgbtq. Youth.

Meagan – Okay.

jillm- And so Oprah asked her essentially like, what was it about this cause that you felt so drawn to? And she just said, If it breaks your heart. you know you need to be there. And she said the fact that over 40% of homeless youth are Lgbtq plus almost half of all homeless youth identify as Lgbtq. And why is that.

Meagan – Zing.

jillm- They get kicked out of their homes when they come out they don’t have support. They’re 14 years old, and they come out to their parents, and they say. I’m sorry you’re not welcome here anymore. What does a 14 year old do when they have no no roof over their head? It’s absolutely devastating.

Meagan – Yeah.

jillm- And I like something broken me when I heard that statistic, and when I heard her explain that I just started sobbing, sobbing. It was like. this is not right. This is no right.

Meagan – Yeah.

jillm- No. 14 year old. belongs on the street.

Meagan – So true.

jillm- Are you like again? Just had this overwhelming impression that came from outside of me that just said, you need to be involved in solving this and being there for people and listening to them and seeing them. And Hi. I I can’t explain it like it just was almost like a calling. It was just like you need to get involved. You need to educate yourself. You need to serve in that community. You need to volunteer. You need to listen. You need to understand what these people are dealing with. and I told my husband we it was on a Friday, I remember, because we went out for a date, and went to dinner that night. Excuse me.

Meagan – Huh!

jillm- And I told him about the impression that I had, and he kind of got emotional as well, cause he’s so, you know. deeply cares about that community as well. And he said, Yeah, you need to follow that impression. You need to get involved. And he totally encouraged me and validated that impression that I had.

Meagan – That just gave me chills. I like.

jillm- Well, and then, like the most sharing dip for this thing happened, because that day, like that night when I got home from dinner, I was just like I was just like on fire inside. I’m like, okay, let’s go. So I emailed, Stephanie Larson, who’s the founder of encircle.

Meagan – Yes, yes, she is I.

jillm- I just poured my heart out to her and told her everything that had happened the previous morning. and she said, Okay. you’re not gonna believe this, but we just purchased property in St. George to build an encircle.

Meagan – No. wow!

jillm- Tell me that’s not like divide intervention, or whatever you wanna call it, like it felt like.

Meagan – All the stars.

jillm- Lining.

Meagan – Aligned.

jillm- And so I I told her on the email I didn’t know her. I didn’t. I just knew of in circle. They have a couple. Let’s see, they at the time they had a location, and oh. Salt Lake and St. George was third, so I just told her. I’m like, Count me, and I’ll do whatever you want me to do. and I just jumped in with both feet and just started helping to get the St. George home off the ground like we had a. They had to kinda do some demo work on an older pioneer home that they purchased and relaxed. Get everything and redesign it, you know, remodel. And then I became the advisory board chair to kind of do some community gathering and get people involved in helping to get the word out about what in circle was about. and from there it’s just like.

Meagan – That is so exciting to be there kind of on the ground level when it just was starting out.

jillm- It was such a rewarding experience, and every one of those like impressions that I felt were validated because getting to know that community was so enriching in my life, and so rewarding and just brought such a different perspective, and like a a shift in the way I saw people like I let go of all judgment.

Meagan – Most definitely.

jillm- I just, I don’t see people in categories anymore. Hearts, and I see love, and I see light.

Meagan – You could have taken those words right out of my mouth. I feel.

jillm- No.

Meagan – Same. I.

jillm- C.

Meagan – Hearts.

jillm- Yeah.

Meagan – I don’t see hair color, jewelry. you know, or clothing styles or options, or if it matches how they are. you know how they present. Does it match? How? My traditional interpretation of sender? You know I it’s a process, but it’s an evolution of your heart that is worth investing in.

jillm- Worth investing in a hundred percent 100%. Yeah, I would do it. I would do it again a thousand times over. It’s been the most beautiful heart, opening journey and experience that I have just absolutely benefited from.

Meagan – So for those that may not be familiar with in circle, just to give a little brief background of in circle. Can you share a little bit about what they.

jillm- Yeah, and they’re like.

Meagan – Role with Lgb.

jillm- Yeah.

Meagan – The skew.

jillm- Encircle, started out in Provo, Utah. Founder, Stephanie Larson, initially. Let’s see, she started it in 2,000, and I want to get this wrong. I think it was 17, I think, was.

Meagan – Sounds about right cause. I remember seeing it in the Believer document.

jillm- Yeah. And that’s how.

Meagan – Ox like that might have been recorded in 2,016 or 15. But it was right around there.

jillm- I know it was Valentine’s day, and I think it was 17. Anyways, it’s a physical home that parents of Lgbtq youth and the youth themselves, and as well as Lgbtq. Adults can come to. For for resources, education, therapy information community it’s essentially like they created it because there’s such a suicide epidemic. Unfortunately, in in Utah there is a team suicide epidemic. It is the highest. Let’s see. statistically, it is the highest cause of death in teens in Utah.

Meagan – Wow!

jillm- It. It’s it’s better.

Meagan – Breaks, my heart.

jillm- Absolutely and statistically, a lot of those kids identify as Lgbtq. So.

Meagan – Almost half from what you said earlier. Yeah.

jillm- Yeah, yeah, so it’s it really is a problem. And and Stephanie saw that providing those resources at a physical location could be potentially the start of a solution to that problem. And so she opened the home in Provo, and then Salt Lake City followed, and then third Heber is now open. and Ogden will be next.

Meagan – Yes. so.

jillm- Utah!

Meagan – I’m crossing my fingers somehow. They’ll make their way to the south.

jillm- Hopes, to.

Meagan – But can we see them.

jillm- Every conservative community needs an encircled.

Meagan – Yes.

jillm- It’s just. It’s such a reminder to see that physical representation of a home that is a safe space and.

Meagan – Yeah.

jillm- May not even have anywhere that they consider safe. Except for that one spot.

Meagan – Yes. so it’s kind of a home away from home for them other than they don’t sleep there or.

jillm- No, yeah, it’s nothing.

Meagan – Can go and just chill and be themselves, and.

jillm- Go after school, bake cookies, do your homework, hang out with kids that are like you, and get you.

Meagan – Cause. It’s like set up like a home with furniture in the family room, living room right, and a kitchen with table and chairs like they can. Literally, it can be a homey feel a safe place.

jillm- And that’s kind of their goal is to create that home like environment.

Meagan – I love that. I think that it is so needed in in many more communities. Well, thank you for sharing that. I don’t think I realized how much of a you were involved in the from the ground level, like there.

jillm- So.

Meagan – Scent.

jillm- Been so wonderful to to be involved in it, but because of that involvement which brings me to my next phase of my journey.

Meagan – Huh!

jillm-: So my oldest Sid, they came out to me in 20 19 yeah. 5 years ago, and I firmly believe that the reason they felt so safe. Sharing who they were was because of my my visible involvement with the Lgbtq community.

Meagan – I’m sure.

jillm- Because they knew I was safe, because they knew I was informed, because they knew I wouldn’t judge them or think less of them. They were able to sit down and have a conversation. They drew me this adorable little. I didn’t see you with a little rainbow behind you. They drew me a little rainbow cause they’re an artist. So they drew me rainbow. And then there was a little cloud at the end of one of the rain. That, said Mom. I’m by. But please don’t treat me any differently.

Meagan – Oh!

jillm- I just was like we just hugged and cried together, and I just thank them for sharing that part of themselves with me, because what an honor that so many parents don’t get to have to have that vulnerable moment with your kid when they share who they are.

Meagan – So true.

jillm- Yeah, I just. I saw that as such a gift that they trusted me. And I know like that is not. That is not the journey for a lot of parents a lot of times. That’s the starting point. And you have a lot of unraveling to do with preconceived beliefs about that community and and what that’s gonna mean in your faith journey. And now that I didn’t have all those questions. but I felt like I was maybe one step ahead because of my involvement with the community.

Meagan – Yeah, you definitely had some preparation.

jillm-: Yeah.

Meagan – Oh, what what a blessing for you and for Sid!

jillm- I think so too, and so I always tell any parent that has any kind of like. not premonition, but just maybe a feeling that your kid could potentially be part of that community. Do whatever you can now to learn, educate yourself, become more aware about the Lgbtq community and those experiences in case. But you feel is true.

Meagan – Because, regardless, they’re watching you. They’re taking in your words, your man number, your mannerisms, your voice, fluctuations. They can. They can tell how you feel about that community. And even if they don’t end up coming out to you. sharing some type of identity within that community. it could affect their level of comfort or trust in sharing other things that are of great importance or significance in their life.

jillm- The.

Meagan – It’s so important to be aware of the the love, the grace, the compassion that we are expressing and showing through our words. Our actions are behaviors are in actions, or the things that we don’t do as well, or don’t say.

jillm- Right? Yeah, I completely agree.

Meagan – So that was you said about 5 years ago. So you had been working with in circle for a while at that point, and If I remember correctly, I remember you sharing your story to one of the parent groups that we were in. I are in. Perhaps you were still involved with the Church. The time.

jillm- I was. Yeah. So this brings me to my kind of last phase.

Meagan – Okay.

jillm- My final, my final spectacular exit from the church.

Meagan – Okay. Okay.

jillm- I just kinda lit a match and threw it and walked away. so Sid came out to us the fall of 2019, and at the time I was serving as the Secretary in our Stake, really Society Presidency, which for those who don’t know, that’s the women’s organization within the Lds church and within the congregations they’re called wards. and then within the steak is like a collection of wards within your geographical area.

Meagan – So it’s like a part of a large city. Often.

jillm- Yeah, yeah.

Meagan – Further from Utah you go. Sometimes it includes the entire city.

jillm- Right? Yeah. So when I when I receive that calling. I was very hesitant because my beliefs were shifting. I didn’t feel like it was fair to represent myself as something other than I was. So I I had a conversation with the Stake Release Society President, the one who had submitted my name to be in that position.

Meagan – Hmm.

jillm- She actually came to my house and sat down with me, and we, like shockingly, had a very open, honest conversation about where I was in my beliefs like where I was on my journey, and I just I flat out, told her. I’m like, I don’t. I don’t really believe that this, is it? But I’m like I can do secretarial stuff. I’m like, if you need Google docs and emails, I can help with that. She’s like, that’s literally all I need. She’s like, I don’t even care where you are in your journey, I honor where you’re at. She she was like in her 60 S. And the most open-hearted, gracious understanding Mormon. I think I’ve ever met.

Meagan – Like.

jillm- It was so refreshing. I’m like, so you know, I’m kind of a hot mess right now, but you still want me. She’s like, yes, I do.

Meagan – Kudos to you both you for.

jillm- Open conversation, showing up authentic.

Meagan – The.

jillm- With.

Meagan – And honoring what? What you were, what was going on inside of you, you know, and and taking it even a step further, and sharing it out loud. That can be, especially in the beginning. It’s it feels kind of scary. You have to tolerate a lot of discomfort in order to do something like that. So kudos to you both, and kudos to her for being open-minded. and nonjudgment and non-judgmental.

jillm- And she she really holds a special place in my heart as my journey progress, because she really she and the others I was serving with just kind of caught me when everything fell apart. When you know I just I wasn’t able to have those hard conversations with family, because it’s just too too hard.

Meagan – Yeah, so.

jillm- So anyways back to the the fall of 2,019. So Sid comes out. We’re just in the middle of planning for A, the Women’s General Conference, which is typically the Saturday night before General Conference, which happens annually in April and October.

Meagan – Biannual worldwide meeting.

jillm- Right? Yeah. So anyways, we were at this conference. So it would have been about a month. Give or take from once it came out. So for parents of Lgbtq kids and high demand religions that are not affirming. When your child comes out you start to have this filter. Everything switches, and you hear, and you see everything through that rainbow lens in that rainbow filter. So.

Meagan – So true.

jillm- All incoming information was hitting me in a very different way than I had been prior to the coming out. So one of the speakers at that event was Dalan H. Oakes, who. for those who are unfamiliar, has a very hard line stance against anything affirming with the Lgbtq community. and when he he was announced as a speaker we didn’t know until that night when he was announced as a speaker. I just felt this PIN my stomach like like I was dreading what was gonna come out of his mouth. and he started to speak. And I want to say about 4 sentences in. He started railing against Lgbtq stuff. and I think for a for a person without that filter. Obviously they would have heard it differently. But the way that it hit. My heart was like it was so visceral in my body. It was like every cell was rejecting his words. I was like, you don’t even know what you’re talking about. You’re talking about, my child. How how dare you like? I was just livid, and I was. That’s sad. And I was so frustrated because I’ve dedicated 40 plus years to this church. And you’re gonna throw my kid under the bus like that because they don’t fit into this tiny little box that you guys approve of. and I was so disgusted and just so heartbroken.

Meagan – Yeah.

jillm- And I couldn’t reconcile. I just.

Meagan – It is, it is heartbreaking.

jillm- The end of Mormonism for me. I’m like I’m not safe here. My child’s for sure. Not safe here. There’s no more benefit. It’s run its course. And as hard as that was having that confirmation. and knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was no longer for me. It was no longer serving me. I was able to leave the church that night and never return.

Meagan – He left the night of that meeting.

jillm- Yeah.

Meagan – You know, Jill. I honor you and your journey as your your Lds heritage as as a mother, as a daughter, as a sibling you. You have other siblings as a spouse. I hear the pain in your voice, and I can hear I it’s almost like I can see it to coming up for you even now, 5 years later.

jillm- Yeah.

Meagan – These are not easy spaces to navigate. These are not painless places. and I honor anybody who is in this space. and who.

jillm- Is.

Meagan – Brave to do what they feel is best for them and their family.

jillm- And.

Meagan – And I thank you, and I share my love with you and your family for being willing to share it with not just me today, but with our listeners and those who will listen perhaps years from now. These decisions, these choices are not easy, and in many cases they are heart wrenching and heartbreaking to feel that sense of you use the word, I think betrayal from something that has meant so much to you, for well, all of your life up into that point. And well, I mean, it’s I. I think there’s always going to be some place in there that will it will. There’s going to be some meaning there, it it’s it’s in your DNA, right? It’s in your it’s in your hair, part of your heritage and your children’s heritage, for that matter, and in some ways that makes it all the more understandable that the the feeling of hurt and pain and betrayal that accompanies is because of that. So obviously your journey, if if we were to rewind back to young Jill has been different than what Jill of yesterter year probably thought that it was going to look like, and and that means well. I’m referring to your faith journey, but I would extend that to even mean your journey as a, as a family, as a spouse, as a parent, and and so on. What what advice would you? We can say that? Would you offer to younger Jill, and and honestly, by extension to any other parent who’s listening? What advice, or or thoughts or counsel would you offer to someone whose journey looks like it’s it’s turning out to be different than what they had perhaps anticipated. It would be, or expected that it would be.

jillm- That’s such a great question. I’m so glad you asked that, because I have learned a lot.

Meagan – Yeah.

jillm- Last few years over. perhaps what I would have done differently, and what I am glad that I did, the way I did. I would say. prioritize your mental health. Being out of alignment. having cognitive dissonance. not staying in your integrity. all have consequences. and whether you admitted or not it. It can cause you physical and and emotional and mental problems, I mean I I will say what? Before I had everything kind of fall apart. I was falling apart. trying trying to keep believing things that I in my heart knew weren’t right. So I think. acknowledging that when you have cognitive dissonance, cognitive dissonance. Allow that to be assigned. that maybe you need to make a shift in your life and move to a different space that is more in alignment with your evolving beliefs. your evolving life experiences for me. My lived experience, having a queer child, did not align with what the Church was teaching me about queer children, and so once I got in alignment with my own self, and what I believe to be true and know to be true. It was honestly like somebody took a weighted vest off of me. And so, I think, pay attention to your body, pay attention to your mental health. watch for signs that you need to make some changes. And also, I think, probably the biggest piece of advice I would give is expect destabilization, expect disorientation, expect discomfort. expect just loss and grief. And that’s okay, like it. It is hard, hard as hell to go through a big transition like, talk about dark night of the soul. It is so difficult and so painful. and I connect so deeply with people who have gone through that because I have so much empathy and so much compassion for people that have been courageous enough to go into that cave and have that dark night of the soul? Because it is, it rocks your world.

Meagan – Does. But you know what’s the.

jillm- Murder.

Meagan – Emails.

jillm- You know what’s even harder. It’s harder.

Meagan – Yeah, avoiding it, resisting it, denying it’s there for sure.

jillm- Sure.

Meagan – That just makes the the foundation.

jillm- You know you go in and get it over.

Meagan – Yeah.

jillm- This the better.

Meagan – That’s that’s really that’s really true. So much of you. What you said I can relate to. I hear you to go through a faith transition, a faith expansion. I like to call it It is painful. It is a dark night of the soul. and I really appreciate that you bring up the mental and emotional health piece. That is something that just cannot be overstated, in my opinion. And historically, it’s not a piece of our overall. Human health that we have focused a whole lot on, I mean is as recent as the eighties and nineties. It was still somewhat. There was a stigma attached to even talking about having a therapist or getting support in that area, or being on medication, or any of that. So that’s such a good and true point that it, being out of alignment, will affect not just your physical self, but your mental, emotional. I’d I’d say, spiritual, intellectual self, all of the facets.

jillm- Every single facet.

Meagan – Yes.

jillm- And I also probably my another piece of advice and encouragement is that it? It doesn’t stay. You don’t stay in the darkness forever when you come out, things are brighter and lighter than before. And so there is. So I wanna I want to offer hope and optimism to those that might be just entering that phase like, how am I gonna possibly do this? Know that there is happiness and joy and lightness and brightness on the other side, and you can find new community, safer community chosen family. It’s it’s it’s the death and the end of maybe like a previous version of yourself. But you upgrade to a better version.

Meagan – How I attended a mastermind for life coaches about a year and a half ago, and I loved what one of the speakers there shared, and that was something to the effect. I’ve had to die a thousand deaths to become the person that I am today. and you know there will be more deaths in the future. But the symbolism there, it’s it’s real. Every time we evolve into our next best self. There is a death of some of the pastness of ourselves, and thank you for sharing that that there is hope on the other side. Cause sometimes that’s hard to feel or see or or understand, especially when you’re in the throes of it. So one final question I love to ask my guests is, what does it mean to you to live beyond the shadow of doubt.

jillm- I love that question. the most immediate thing that comes to mind is when you step out of a shadow, you step into light. and some of the synonyms of light are coming to mind of like unburdened, bright. cheerful illuminated. And so for me. stepping out of the shadow. allowed me to just shine and be authentic and not have to hide anymore. So stepping into the light has just been like this whole journey of like honestly, joy and happiness. I just feel so unburdened I get to. I get to just be me.

Meagan – That’s that’s beautiful. I love that for you. I’m really excited to have this episode published. There’s been some really beautiful things we’ve talked about, and I’ve gotten to know so much more about you and I. That’s probably my favorite part about this conversation.

jillm- Same way. This has been so lovely.

Meagan – So just for fun. I always throw out a few questions at the end, so we can get to know you just a little bit better, and I’m just looking for one or 2 word answers, no, nothing, nothing, Major. but tell us your favorite book or audio book.

jillm- Hey, yeah, I listen to a lot of audio books, and I would say I think we mentioned it previously. But the power of vulnerability if you haven’t read it by Renee Brown.

Meagan – Yeah.

jillm- She has been one of my greatest teachers.

Meagan – Me too.

jillm- This journey.

Meagan – Would you consider yourself an introvert or extrovert.

jillm- Oh, boy, Introvert, with a capital! I give me a cat and a book, and a quiet house, and a cup of tea, and I am happy as my own.

Meagan – That’s awesome. And who is your favorite artist?

jillm- I am a huge fan of the lumineers. We just saw them in concert last summer, so I love that.

Meagan – Ban.

jillm- Yeah.

Meagan – I can’t remember if I’ve seen them. It seems like I have, but I’ve seen a lot. That’s that’s a fun band. What about? Are you a night owl or a morning mark. So the older I get the less night owish I’ve become.

jillm- But I do still enjoy being up late and watching the Stephen Colbert with my husband.

Meagan – That’s fun. And do you have a celebrity crush.

jillm- Dolly Parton.

Meagan – Oh, I like that one.

jillm- I love Dolly Parton like Dolly for President.

Meagan – Do you do still, or carbonated water? Or are you a diet soda fan.

jillm- I am not a diet soda fan. I always have my my trusty.

Meagan – Yes, I see that.

jillm- No water. You’re Stanley.

Meagan – No sides, only love. I love the sticker.

jillm- And circle. Yep.

Meagan – And the furthest place you’ve traveled.

jillm- Japan.

Meagan – Yay!

jillm- Yeah, we went to Japan in 2010.

Meagan – Okay.

jillm- Stay with the host family. and honestly, it was life changing like best people on the planet live in Japan.

Meagan -: We finally got to go last year to visit, not with a host family, but it is perfectly.

jillm- Yeah.

Meagan – Place I’ve ever been.

jillm- It was so wonderful it! There’s like a whole thing with the city of St. George, and then there’s a city in Japan, and they have their sister cities with their marathons. so we send their delegation to Japan, and they do the same. So we got to go with the delegation and stay with the host family, and the experience was so enriched because we were just in the home of Japanese family. And so we got to just see them living their lives and experience, their culture and their food, and they were so gracious and so kind and so welcoming. I just have the most amazing experience. There.

Meagan – What a memory! So glad you guys got that. So if folks wanted to connect with you, Jill, or you know, if they had questions that they wanted to reach out to you about what would be the best way for them to connect.

jillm- Yeah, I am online social media. Wise Instagram is Jill underscore Mortensen, MORT. ENSE. N.

Meagan – Okay.

jillm- Facebook is Jill Naylor and A. YLOR. And then Mortensen. I’m on Twitter X. Or whatever it is now, and I’m not on Tiktok. So yeah, Instagram’s probably the best place.

Meagan – Okay, I will leave both those in the show notes for folks to find. Thank you so much.

jillm- And for the what you’re doing, Megan.

Meagan – Yes.

jillm- I really admire you and the the work that you’re doing to normalize these conversations. And I have just really enjoyed kind of going back through some of your recent interviews and and listening to such a wide variety of guests and their perspectives. And it’s so enriching and so enlightening. And I just wanna thank you. From one Mormon to another.

Meagan – Thank you.

jillm- For normalizing.

Meagan – Yeah.

jillm- It’s a it’s a.

Meagan – Painful space we have to.

jillm- Yes.

Meagan – Normalize that just because people aren’t talking about it doesn’t mean it’s not happening because it is happening happening.

jillm- And are.

Meagan – Yes, there’s no shame in it.

jillm- No, no shame at all. Thank you for helping to.

Meagan – Yeah, and.

jillm- So there!

Meagan – No matter if somebody has chosen to stay connected with the church at this point, or chosen to distance themselves or leave. you know I to me, we’re still all connected as humans. We’re still all connected as part of this giant human family. created by the same force. Whether a person refers to that as the universe, or God, or Allah, or a power that’s greater than us. All right.

jillm- Yes, and.

Meagan – And for me, love is what binds us right? Love is what connects us truly on. I’d even say, molecular level. But yeah, these are so important to me, and I thank you so much for being willing to come on and share your story.

jillm-It was my pleasure. Thank you.