Episode 123: Every stage of faith is preceded by a doubt with Casey McFarland

Meagan Skidmore – Here we go. hey, everyone! Welcome to today’s episode of beyond the shadow of doubt. I am thrilled. I always say that at the beginning, but I genuinely mean it. I have a new friend with me today. And, Casey this is really our first time getting to chat virtually.

Casey – Yeah.

Meagan – All.

Yeah. And.

Casey – Sided.

Meagan – I’m I’m so happy to hear that. And like I said before hitting the record button, I really appreciate you being being willing to dive into this and being game to talk about. Something that I have found is an integral part of my faith journey, and that is just allowing doubt, and even leaning into it, and allowing all the questions, just not making it mean anything negative or shameful or bad, any of those things that it’s truly a part of our journeys, and so I believe some of your content was shared to somebody’s story that I follow, and that’s how I found you.

Casey – Yeah.

Meagan – I can’t. I can’t remember who shared it, but it was a reel that you posted. You actually have several accounts, and I’ll leave the links in the show notes for them, so folks can connect with you. But it was at Casey Mcfarland photo. It was at that Instagram account.

Casey – Yeah

Meagan – And you talk about the necessity of doubt how it’s you called it a catalyst into the next stage. In your faith journey we can get to that in a little bit. But I saw that, and I was immediately gravitated toward that. I’m like, yes, yes, this is, I feel the same. So. anyway, and you’re also a participate. Your enrolled, I guess you could say in the living school, and I’d love to hear a little bit more about that. But before I get way ahead of myself I wanna give you the time to introduce yourself to our listeners. Tell us about your background, and you know your upbringing family profession, all the things that are, you know. pertinent to your story, and kind of how you got to this space of Your other account I’ll have to find.

Casey – Pioneering.

Meagan – Pioneering paradox. Yes.

yes, so.

Casey – Yeah, do you wanna get right into it?

Meagan — Absolutely share. Let us know your origin story

Casey – First of all, I’ve really really loved your content. I think it’s very clear and direct and very helpful. I I just shared it today on my pioneering paradox account, because I think it’s would be so helpful for so many people.

Meagan – Thank you.

Casey – Yeah, I that’s a good way to start is I do have separate accounts. I have a pioneering paradox account that I’ve kind of primarily used for talking about faith.

I tried to couple that with my my photography account. I’ve been a career photographer for the last 23 years. I do a lot of stuff out of the country, I was, and and I own a tour company. So I have a a few different things. We just spent. We spent about 2 months out of the year in Italy. That’s my other account, which is Mcfarland Tours. and so.

Meagan – Okay, right?

Casey – I have. That’s why it’s so hard. I’m like going. I got all these interests and these things, and I’m like some people, you know. I just I I’m trying to combine them. But it’s really hard. So But anyway, I yeah, I’ve been a career photographer for since the year 2,000. I started with film right after I got married and I chased my wife up to. We met down at Snow College in in Central Utah and Ephraim, Utah. We met within 2 h of living down there and she was my cousin’s roommate, and we just kind of hit it off, and both went on missions and came back. and I loved where she lives so much up in this this valley in Cash Valley so much that I chased up here, and and we’ve kind of pretty much lived up here ever since. And so we’ve got 4 kids we’ve got a 22 year old, a sorry 21 year old, a girl. We got 3 girls and one boy, and the boys 17, getting ready to graduate, 2 older daughters, one down at Snow College, and one moved out, and then a younger, the one that’s 13. So so it’s a lot of fun. We’re kind of moving into a little bit of losing some of the kids out of the home, and it’s been a little bit bizarre. But we’re we’re having fun.

Meagan So. Right there, I get it. Yeah.

Casey – Yeah, we just got back from the tour to Italy just like 3 days ago. So we’re just kind of getting back to reality right now.

Megan Yeah. Jet lag is worn off.

Casey – Pretty much doing doing good. It’s the food that adds the adjustment I have to eat normal again. So yeah, we. I grew up in Arizona. I grew up for a part as I heard you did, too. I think a little bit. I was done in Mesa.

Megan I did, yeah.

Casey – Then and then Utah. We as a family, we lived in Guatemala for a little bit right before covid and we like to. We’re a travel family. We’ve been to. Close to 40 different countries and just really love to travel and explore. And and we’re we’re kind of bounce around. We’ve been to probably 50 different churches as a family, just just exploring things.

Megan You mean different buildings like chapels of the Lds. 8, or you be. So like everything from there’s like. Patient.

Casey – Everything from Islam to Hindu to scientology to Christian Science, to everything yelling, holy rollers all the stuff. So it was just.

Meagan I love that so much. That is way, cool.

Casey – That was part of how I dealt with going through a faith change like, you know, I still attend the Latter Day Saint community. But that was part of how I was dealing with. It was like going. I can’t, didn’t feel comfortable right then going to church. And so I’m like, we gotta let’s do something I wanna make. I wanna make this useful. So we did a lot of that. And then.

Meagan I love that.

Casey – Yeah. So

Meagan yeah, I would love to hear more about you. Talked about visiting this visiting all these different denominations was really helpful for you as you were going through a faith change. Can you share a little bit more about that when that happened? What what was going on for you,  through you what the catalyst, for it was.

Casey – For sure. I think that’s an integral part of our story, because.

Aha!

Casey – Both my wife and I like I I was having some who is speaking a doubt. I was having some doubts. Starting in 2,006. I was starting to have some questions, and and not knowing not having tools to to navigate some of these things. Back then, you know. Especially, there was very little communication and courses (?), and frankly.

Meagan We didn’t Have social media like we do.

Casey No part of the yeah. And part of the reason why.

Meagan Embryonic.

Casey – Yeah, I was. So I’m so adamant about talking about these things is because I spent 8 years in doubt, like, without telling my wife. I just

co afraid that I was gonna burst her bubble with some of my questions. Afraid? Oh, a. A. How! What would it do for our relationship, all the all the fears that happen with doubt, especially during that time period.

And So a little over time. you know, I was just on my own. I had one friend that I communicated with some of my doubts, and he was in the bishopric, and his wife had struggled, and I didn’t even know that. But so I had a friend that I could confide in, and then I it was so. It’s so helpful when you’re going through that to have somebody to talk to that you don’t. So you don’t feel crazy.

Cause feeling crazy is really a a problem with just like, why am I feeling this way so alone, and not some crazy right and and the truth is, I you know my my wife, at a certain point ended up kind of struggling. I did, kind of, confided her, and it did cause a little bit of a catalyst as well. And so, you know, there’s, you know, there’s things here. But but during this time is about 2,015, both of us were kinda going alright. Whoa! What we don’t know what to do and how to raise a family. If we’re not, we don’t know where, where, what we’re doing. Like as we just felt completely confused like when you’re kind of going through some faith changes going. I’ve never, never had this model never seen it done. But my thought process was all of our family.

Cause. There was a time period there where I was completely checked out, and I was planning an exit strategy for the family, like we were like, and my wife’s like there with Pompom saying, Let’s get, let’s get this done.

And I had a moment where I was sitting on my couch like literally looking at real estate at different places. and trying to find a place to move entirely away and start fresh. and I had this moment where I had this kind of I don’t want to call a vision, but a visual of like this massive. this massive house.

I felt I I well, I had kind of felt like I needed because of my doubts. I had needed to wipe away this Mormon house that I had built with. You know that I kept trying to repair, and Trip kept trying to do everything.

Move.

Casey – And and the reality is is that I I kinda had this visual of this massive, really big house kinda being lowered over the top of that that moment that I had built, and it was like, Oh, I don’t have to throw away. I don’t have to dec like completely wipe away this Mormon house. I just need an expansion here like God needs to be bigger in my from for me, like cause. Cause I, you know, is doing a lot of traveling and expanding my thought process, and how and and and I was really struggling with a god that was stuck inside of a classroom or something, you know. So it just needed expansion. But as part, the reason why we started like I was watching a lot of friends leave the church, and I was going. You know I don’t want I want my children to appreciate this heritage I want I I I want my children to appreciate their grandparents and their family, who are still very orthodox in this. In this community I want them to respect their grandparents and everything, even while we were in the middle of like having some what we you know we’re looking at as deconstruction to a certain degree. So my thought process was rather than be negative during that time period and be like, Hey. you know, we don’t do this anymore, or whatever it was like. Let’s just I hate to say it this way, but I was. My thought process was to dilute the message to a little bit like, Let’s go out and and explore all these different churches and and just show how many good people there are in the world learn from these other communities. And and frankly, those other communities were what kinda helped me appreciate my own heritage again.

Because I I did a 6 month Buddhist retreat with no rush. Noah Rishetta, and it was a like I don’t. He was the. I don’t know if you know him, but he has a podcast. Called secular Buddhism and I was like, Oh, man, these I was kind of looking at Buddhism going. I’m seeing some of the same language just written differently like I I started to kind of like be, you know, the the concept in Buddhism of of non-attachment or something. I started looking. You know, this is kind of what we do when we accept a calling in our church where we just kinda we don’t. We don’t get attached. We just say, Yeah, we’ll we’ll do that, or we get a mission call, or whatever it’s. It’s it’s a very Buddhist practice from my perspective to to accept a mission call and just not be attached to the outcome. It’s it’s quite. It’s quite rare. It’s quite interesting that somebody’s willing to give 2 years year and a half to 2 years of their life. not knowing where they’re going to go.

So I started kind of going to the Baptist. I felt like the Baptist helped me learn about grace. I felt like we learned about faith through Christian Science. Not to be Miss can communicate it is. It’s not scientology. Christian Science is very miracle. Faith based. It’s quite fascinating. And it was just. It was beautiful. It was beautiful, I mean, we were in a church in Phoenix. It was a black church, and it was Martin Luther King, Jr. Day the day before, and we walk in, and the entire congregation stood up and turned around and faced my family and open their arms, and said in unison, We welcome you to the, to our church, into our community with open arms. It was. I mean, there’s the things, yeah. And even after all that my daughter decided to go on a mission. She went on a mission to Oregon, and and so we we are.

We have a just kind of an unorthodox relationship with with all this, you know, but it’s like I don’t. I don’t know, anyway. So we we we experienced a lot of things and and we still do. My wife and I are very one of the things we love taking people to our holy sites, and we do that a lot in Italy and.

Meagan Okay, so that’s where the tours come in.

Casey – Yeah. So I started mission in Italy. So I speak the language. I have a lot of connections, and we do a it’s it’s not just holy, but it’s a lot of food and and stuff, too, but but the holy sites are very important to us anyway. So so I tried to use my doubt a as a catalyst to to towards something positive, which is not a. You know. I haven’t always done that, but I tried to. That makes sense.

Meagan Yeah, I I see so much positive in what you’re sharing. I very much feel I have been going through a faith expansion when I finally kind of found that word in the beginning, you know, I found a lot of folks, especially during the pandemic. A lot of questions really started to come up. I I could say that now in hindsight. I don’t know that like you say, people don’t necessarily talk about this. That’s why I feel strongly about having these conversations. but yeah, in the beginning, calling it a faith crisis never really resonated with me. It was to me that denoted that something had gone wrong, like horribly wrong. And for me it was you know, my child, coming out as queer that really sent me on a pivot in my face journey. And so faith expansion really landed for me.

Casey – I love that I heard that on your podcast and I thought, that is a beautiful. that is a beautiful phraseology. For for that experience and.

Meagan And it goes along so well with this vision of this massive house that you had. I mean, that’s so beautiful like you’re keeping what you gained from that original home right.

Casey – Yeah. Do you know what? The the thing that really was a catalyst for that for me was reading the book, the dark side of the light chasers and understanding the concept that Carl Jung, the psychiatrist, to talked about the shadow and how what I what I see, what I was seeing happening was a lot of people leave the faith and just take that same thing and move to it, and just and to a different shell.

So we actually attended for a little while, and and I have nothing. I I don’t wanna like I have nothing. People are in different stages. But we attended for a while. My wife wanted to go to. This place was kind of an ex Mormon place, where we were watching people who had left the faith and I didn’t. And I was. I actually had to have a confrontation with one of them, because I’m like, I can’t bring my kids here they was. So I just felt like they took some of the same judgments that they want, and just, and we’re moving it to a different shell. Not everybody does that. But but that was certainly the case that was happening at that time, and I didn’t want to move just to a different shell. I wanted to know what what it is. Why am I having doubts? Why? And you go over this really well, in your you know the thought process you talk about in your podcast why am I having doubts what is going on? But the shadow concept was this, part of me, where I’m going? try. I had this realization that trying to remove the Mormon part of me was like was like in my mind. I was like, it’s like Elder Ugdov, trying to get rid of a German accent like it’s. It’s not something that is possible.

Right.

Casey – In fact, one of the things we talk about in the living school is that you will never get rid of that. So rather than try to fight and push. The the concept of the shadow is that you try to hide, and and these dark parts that you don’t like about yourself anymore. And you’re like putting is the the best analogy is you got all these beach balls and you’re trying to push them underneath the underneath in a swimming pool, and you’re trying to hold them underwater. but they just they surface, they pop up so no matter how much you’re trying to hide this part of yourself that you don’t like anymore. It’s still there. So my thought process was

I understanding that I actually was like, Okay. I had this moment where I was like, I’m gonna go back to church. and I’m going to sit in sacrament meeting week after week until I can understand why these people are bugging me so bad because the shadow concept is that whatever you don’t like in other people is something you usually don’t like in yourself. And so I’m going. There’s something that’s bugging me. And and what was bugging was, I was going some of the same. The judgmentalness on some of the stuff you see in church, in every church. Frankly. I’m going that that’s me. That’s who I am.

A, and rather than just go. That’s not me. I just go. No, that’s that’s who I am. That’s who I, if maybe was, or whatever you know. And I felt like I I needed to really investigate that shadow part of me, and embrace the wholeness of it, the the those parts of me again to. So the room. Does that make sense? I don’t know if that’s.

Meagan Yeah, I I think so. The reason the shadow is there is because there’s light. and it’s not void. Behind that shadow. There is something there. And

Casey yeah.

Meagan and that’s that’s not a bad thing. I I just think that we have viewed it kind of in in a negative way for a long time.

Casey – Yeah.

Meagan But I I see that evolving I hopeful. I’m hopeful that it’s evolving.

Casey – Yeah, because, frankly, if you take the word like integrity. it the root word is integer, and which means. And soIt’s a whole number you have to like to me. I had to embrace all of myself, including that heritage of mine like. I don’t know if that makes sense, but it.

Meagan It does like. If if you studied a little bit about epigenetics like literally. Mormonism is in your DNA, especially like I. I go 6 generations back, 6 to 7.Thing. Like

Casey – yep, yep.

Meagan- It literally is passed down. And the best way I’ve learned to kind of I’m very visual. And so and so this is totally in. I’m non scientific, totally lay person terms, but in the same way that you know, I have brown eyes and dark brown hair. I have kind of all of complexion. Those are characteristics that were passed down to me through my DNA, from my forebears. Right? And those are obvious because we can see them with the naked eye. But there’s other characteristics that are passed down to us from our forebearers that aren’t so obvious because they’re internal like our our emotional and mental characteristics are spiritual. I really believe that that is a thing, and so it makes so much sense that it’s a help. I I believe it’s healthier to try to like you, said Integrate. And and that’s why this idea of expansion just made so much more sense and brought so much more peace.

Casey – Yeah.

Me!

Casey – I 100% agree. And I would say, even for some people, cause I know some people. It is a I believe it. It is healthy for some people, the 2,

the the church can be toxic for them. It can be a place where they need to go, and they need to explore and go to a different direction. Even in that case. I think at some point we have to come to a grips and still embrace that part of us, even if somebody is, I still think that that’s that’s part of of the integrity that that we’re talking about here and

Megan  Yeah, I really like how you point that out.

Anyway. So I totally agree with you. Yeah. And and to your point. When you mentioned you had visited a a sect or a group that had primarily those that had left the Mormon Church.I feel similarly, I don’t want more of the same. I don’t want to go and do something. and just the reverse of what you know I feel not making any sense. I don’t wanna leave, and then harbor negative, hateful spiteful feelings. And again, that is not to diminish the real and lived experience of some I know. for many who identify. You know my my spaces with Lgbtq. Plus families, and for many of them. It is not a healthy place. The messages that they are receiving do not contribute to positive. expansive mental health. Some people they can, and that and that’s where it just comes down to leaning, tapping into your own integrity. Well, integrity, yes, but intuition And and then heating that, listening to it.

Casey – I think this is, you know. when you were talking about how my original post, that the that doubt is a catalyst

Yes.

Casey – Think that’s a good way to segue into that. Because and in fact, in your first episode of your podcast you you make reference to Brian Mclaren and

Yes.

Casey – Faith after to doubt, can’t recommend that book enough. He’s one.

Meagan I know so good

Casey – Yeah, he’s one of the mentors of the living school, and it’s it’s really been good. But his his, you know, there’s a lot of different models for these different stages of faith that we have. There’s quite a few of them. And I love how Richard Roe talks about how every model is is not true, but it but it can point us into it can be helpful, right? And these stages of faith things, one of the things that Brian Mclaren pointed me on to, that I was making. Reference to this is that every stage of faith is preceded by a doubt like it is a a doubt is, the next is what causes somebody to move to a different stage of faith and and I say that because one of the stages of play, faith is perplexity, and perplexity is the stage where somebody comes into their own authority and says, This is.

Them.

Casey – Or this is, or and that’s a stage would can be very confusing and difficult for somebody where they go. Okay, I’m I’m having a moment of like going, questioning a lot of the things I was told growing up, and that’s often caused by sometimes a loved one.

Right.

Casey – Or or or something that happens in your life. For me it was I was reading some stuff that was different than the expectation I had with my church history and that sort of thing. So But I say that because I think in the Latter Day Saint Community I was thinking about this in terms of the Church as a whole. has had to go through these same stages of faith.

In fact, I think the the to me the time period where we left Navu and Iowa and all that stuff, and we went to Salt Lake was a stage of perplexity. It was a stage where of finding ourselves almost like a teenager, I hate to say, put it this way, but think of it like America, out of the.

That makes sense. Yeah.

Casey – And we’re going off to find. And and frankly, that’s when some of the weird things happen like polygamy. And some of these things where we’re just like in exploration, setting ourselves, setting ourselves up as our own authority and saying, we are our own authority over here, and we need this time and this space to be able to be who we need to be

now over time.

Fascinating. I.

Casey – Help. Yep.

and you think of it in terms of a state.

Jiffy.

Casey – Can you go now? The problem is is that some of the stages of faith that we deal with now like, okay, so simplicity is the first stage of faith, and that’s good versus evil, bad, bad, good. Well, we still have a lot of people who look back at polygamy and go from a simplistic comp perspective and go. No, that was right, and it, you know, da da da, and I look at it, and I go. No, that was a that was a stage of faith that was like that was to a certain degree the 1920 year old kid going into the military and being in Korea or something, and getting a tattoo on his arm and then going oh, crap! You know, 10 years later, going? Why did I get that tattoo like it was. It was a discovery process. This is my perspective.

But eventually we moved out of that, and we moved into the last stage of faith, and we’re still working on this. But we we’ve moved into more of a harm into harmony. Harmony is the last stage of face, faith, and that’s where we started going. It wasn’t until the 19 thirties in the church where David, you know, some David Mckay and some of these people come in and start going.

We wanna get along with our neighbors. We wanna would not just be off isolated in our own little planet. We actually wanna get along. And then we almost kind of flip the switch and became uber American. So we try to. We have tried to be in harmony with the United States ever since that time period. almost sometimes to a fault. So I think that if you know now the Church as a whole. when we are dealing with these stages of faith, we are still be. The Church has been able to do some of these stages of faith, but its members are still not fully allowed to go into perplexity.

A. A. As easily as we have done as an institution. If that makes sense.

I think So.

Casey – So I’m sorry this is getting a little complex, but but but I’ll I’ll kind of proceed it by saying that. The first 2 stages of faith. The Church does really really well.

Meagan Yes.

Casey – That’s like teaching people and teaching kids how to know right and wrong, and and to know good from evil and bad. And you know. That’s how we look at everything during those.

Meagan Or like how Richard Roar calls it the first half of life. They do that half very well.

Casey – The first half of life right? And without you you have to have those first 2 stages. If you don’t do those well in the beginning of your life. Then you see this happen with people having to do it again in the later part of their life. So you see a kid who goes, who has a lot of trouble in their teens and gets on drugs or something like that, and then they come back full throttle, engaged in the church later on, when they’re in their thirties or forties. And it’s because they they’re like, go on. They’re kind of going through those first stages of faith. even they’re double. They doubled down sometimes on those first 2 stages of faith. And does that make sense.

Meagan Yeah, I think, so keep going. Yeah.

Casey – That’s like my my my! My friend’s dad was a really troubled kid. and then in his thirties, you know, he or he was an alcoholic, and he did all this stuff when he was young, and then he he came out of that. And now he’s going. Now he’s like an Uber defender of right and wrong inside of the church and is very dogmatic and very stage one stage 2. His faith right, and he so he doesn’t have very much tolerance, because those 2 stages don’t have a lot of tolerance for.

Meagan Yeah.

Casey – You know, hippies, or whatever whatever it is, right. Right for variation.

Casey – Too too complicated.

Meagan For things that don’t look like you do. Yeah.

Casey – But where where doubt comes in is when you’re in complexity. And we’re in this kind of stage where complexity is stage 2, where you. You’re kind of going within the institution. I’m finding my my own self. I’m finding that I have maybe a little different ideas from the Prophet, or something like that. But I’m still part of the the group of people. And I’m like just realizing I’m finding myself within the tribe. That’s this so important for human development.

Perplexity happens. And this is what’s happening with doubt in our era now is when somebody’s going. they go. Okay. Well, I’m found myself within that. But a catalyst happens, something that creates doubt and pushes somebody into perplexity. In your case your child comes out as gay, or something like that right? And it goes well that does not fit within the first 2 stages of faith. So what that causes this really perplex reaction. and that is caused by doubt. And and what happened to us during the the polygamy era that created that doubt was the government coming in and saying, We’re gonna take and freeze all of your assets.

We’re we’re gonna take away the temple. We’re gonna take away all of your assets, and it cause Wilfred Woodruff to go. We’re we’re. I’m doubting my position here, and he chose the church to to keep the church instead of keep polygamy. I don’t know if that makes any sense.

Meagan I hear you.

Casey – But this is what’s happening on a minor scale within humans moving into perplexity, the challenges. The church doesn’t have very tools to help people in perplexity. Nor does it. And what you’re talking about is like help is making doubt and understanding that in order to get to harmony, you first have to go through perplexity.

Meagan You do, and.

Casey – Harmony is so important, right? It is, and such a key part of of the perplexity piece.

Meagan You’re right. There aren’t a lot of tools to navigate that stage of faith and add to that. we’re not really encouraged to differentiate our identity from kind of the mainstream belief. And there’s a lot of I’ll just shame. There’s a lot of otherness that is attached to that. When you do start to try to differentiate yourself, and and that includes your opinions, your your beliefs and your own lived experience. When your own lived experience differentiates from quote unquote the norm. I don’t believe there is a norm. But yeah.

Casey – Yeah, and what what I think correct me if I’m wrong. But I think you and I are on the same page of going all right. What we want is a healthier stage, 3. Stage 4 for people who are moving into perplexity.

Yeah

Casey – Rather than freaking out and saying, This is the worst thing that could ever happen.

Meagan Yes.

Casey – You say? No, this step, this stage of perplexity, whether something.

Actually.

Casey – Sizes. Stay in the church or out is the step that somebody needs to go towards Harmony.

Yes, and I want less focus. well, ideally. less focus on whether a person is quote unquote in or out of the church, because honestly, there’s so much that’s a spectrum. There’s so much there that goes into that like, I don’t know that you can really classify somebody as completely, and unless they self define that way right? But instead of, I guess it’s not that I don’t acknowledge that that exists. It’s more like, can we just switch our focus, to concepts, to principles, to experience, to the individuals, to what’s going on for them. And at the at the end of the day about love. Yeah. And godly love, and Christ like love and the divine within each of us.

Casey – 100%. I I have a theory about why so many people are getting thrown into complexity. Or do you want to hear it? Or. Oh, yes, of course. Throw it out there.

Casey – Thought process is and this, this actually kinda helps me to have a little empathy and a little sympathy for for church leaders and the church, or something like that, because you, as you recall growing up W. The church really was everything to us. It was our entire right. It was the entire world. Yes.

Casey – From right our children and us in the last 20 years. 25 years almost. we got exposed to an entire. We have, little by little without really even thinking about it, been exposed to some of the world’s. We’ve been exposed to the world. We’ve been exposed through the Internet to so many ideas that we didn’t have when we were young people.

Meagan That seemed so distant and far away, or.

Casey – Or like, and we could get away with saying, You know those people are not happy, and the only happy people are, and that was not.

True.

Casey – Every every church I’ve been to says the same thing. Every church I’ve been to says we’re a peculiar people. Well, we all are learning at the living school. There’s people coming from all different faith traditions at the living school. Everybody realized. We’re not so particular like we did, I say peculiar particular. I don’t know. But you know, we we have this kind of idea. We’re a peculiar people. But we just the Internet helped us understand. We’re not so peculiar like. We’re just human.

Meagan I think. What it did is it showed us we’re a whole lot more alike.Yeah, then, we are different.

Casey – Yes, and if we think in terms of the very last stage of faith that Brian Mclaren is talking about is harmony, and part of that is understanding and inclusion of other faith. Traditions.

Yeah.

Casey – And understanding that these people are having a very similar experience to to us. you know we’re not choosing between. It’s not like a lame, and I nee fight choosing between good and.

Brian.

Casey – Kids are now and us as humans. I remember Neil A. Maxwell came and spoke to a regional conference when I was like 20 years ago, and he said, You know, most of the decisions we have to make are between Prime A and Prime B. They’re not between good people go and like become flesh, eating.

Yeah.

Casey – Terrible people with, you know, there’s exceptions of that. But but most.

I can.

Sorry. Go ahead.

Casey – Yeah, no, the the one of the biggest reasons kids are are struggling with. They’re going. I have to choose between the church and.

Hmm! Why?

Casey – Lgbtq, right

brother, or myself, or whatever.

Meagan And those are 2 choices that we are really difficult for. Nobody wants to make. So I just wanted that is perplexity. And I just wanted to add to your the idea you expressed regarding harmony. how it includes those of other faiths. You know, this isn’t something I don’t believe. I’ve said out loud on my podcast yet for me, that description that you just painted right. There goes right along with this idea of missionary work that is so important to the Lds. Faith. if you’re looking at missionary work for what it really is. You’re it’s it’s supposed to include everyone.

Right? You’re sharing the good news with everyone. perhaps the missing piece is, they also may have some good news to share, and that we can also benefit from, or learn from, or grow from. etc. But to me this idea of of having good be found in other faiths. It just, it makes sense to me, and it it resonates with me, and it it actually aligns with this idea that you know Christ’s gospel is for everyone.

Casey – I I think you’re defining the next stage of faith that the church is gonna go through that we’re beginning to go through, because in some ways we’ve been kind of in an adolescent phase. and Adelaide.

Buttons.

Casey – The adolescents are always I just I I know I’m right. I’m whatever. And we’re kind of opening up and going maybe we we don’t have. We’re starting to lose some of that language and go. Maybe we have something to learn, because that’s humility. Humility is like rather than when my daughter went on her mission. I said, if you’re just telling people things. you will not get a fraction of what you could get if you listen. Like most of what I learned in Italy, was like opening and just like, Tell me your story. Open up like and I can say I I really feel like I gained a lot more from people than I got on my mission.

And so. and but part of my struggle was when I grew up in the in the first stages of faith, you and I grew up, thinking we were the entire puzzle.

Meagan Yeah.

Casey – We are the. And then people have little fractions. But we have the entire puzzle. I think we’re coming into a realization that because of the information age we’re dealing with, that we I I actually through that wanted to throw the whole puzzle out into the garbage. And then part of my perplexity was part of the stage of perplexity moving into harmony. which I haven’t fully done. I bump in and out of all these stages, but

Part of it is doubting that you’re right, that the church is all bad. So again, doubt is again, maybe you need. There are things we should doubt, and doubting the anger, doubting the the frustration, and doubting some of these things, allowed me to move into a place where I went.

Meagn Actually, you know what I think we are a beautiful piece of the puzzle. we’re not. The whole pause. How you said that I really like how you said that. Yeah.

Casey – And and that allows me.Ourselves for all of it.

Casey – And I that allowed me to embrace and go. The Latter Day Saint Community has something beautiful to offer to the world. And we have a lot to learn from other communities.

Meagan Yes.

yes.

Casey – And and and that is moving into more of a harmonic place. But but once again, like I had, I had a moment like literally, when I was in this, in the height of anger cause, I would got really angry, and feeling like I was betrayed and lied to, and all these different feelings that come along with grief.

Meagan And I’ll be the first to say, allow those phases, allow yourself to feel it. Allow yourself to go through all of it.

Casey Yes, but it was doubt that created me, and I go. Maybe there’s a better. I can’t stay here forever. You don’t want to stay in perplex.

Like son.

Casey – Forever and Richard Rohr talks about how so many people choose to remain in perplexity. It feeds the ego to constantly be angry and be right and be all these different things. Harmony is like moving into a place where you are able to maintain your own authority, but also give people the benefit of the doubt and go. You know, these guys are trying and find the good and all the you know. Part of that inclusivity also means including the people who raised us. Because what? How?

Meagan True, very true.

Casey – That’s one thing Buddhism taught me when I was sitting here. Run away from Mormonism, and Buddhism is like, Tell telling you, hey? We’re all one. and I’m going well. The very people I don’t want to be a part of anymore are the very the biggest. the biggest learning ground for me. I don’t.Yeah, I don’t want yeah. You.

Casey – Yeah, but for me, that was my story. And.

Meagan Hmm.

Casey – Anyway.

Meagan You know you’re talking about this. this perplexity, the stage that seems to be happening broadly. And it made me think of an interview. I did that air that published in the beginning of March with Yesa Purcell. He is a graduate student actually at Asu, majoring in choral performance. But he, as a musician, talked about this idea of dissonance, and there’s certain chords that cause this feeling of that. They don’t necessarily sound beautiful and harmonious, but they are. They signify a transition, a moment of pause. and they feel discomfort. You. You feel discomfort or ill at ease as you hear them. But the natural follow-up to that is the harmony, the chords, the conclusion, the yeah, the finality of of the piece. And that’s what struck me as you were talking about this this great symphony that we’re all a part of right now. There are a lot of just chords being played, or or or coming about. And yeah, you go back and forth sometimes between the perplexity and the harmony I can. I can totally see that. And I love this idea that you’re bringing into from Buddhism of. We’re all one whole, and I and I feel that, too. I haven’t heard it expressed in in that way yet, but that resonates with me 100.

Casey – Well and imagine like when you know, the hardest people we have to deal with is like S, the one of the biggest struggles we have sometimes is going back to Thanksgiving dinner and just sitting down with our parents and blah blah blah, because the reason why sometimes we have friction with our parents is because we’re so much like them. And we were reminded face to face sometimes with the things that are that are like, oh, my Dad does that, and that’s where I got it. I’m gonna hate that in myself. And sometimes that’s the thing we have, even with our children. We go. Oh, my kids acting just like me

Technically.

Casey – And I hate that about myself. That’s that is breeding. That is like is the goal. That area right there is the goal of the shadow is going into those areas going the things I hate about myself, I need to ldove those parts of me and and that’s why I think it’s so fruitful. It has been for me, I can’t say for everybody. I needed time. I needed space to move away from church, and I still take that time, but also like to go and be confronted with a mirror of people, of of saints who I learn from and go? Oh, yeah, I can. Why is that person bugging me? And it’s it’s.

True.

Casey – Moment for me to go. Oh, it’s because of something I don’t like in myself. and

Meagan It is a mirror.

Casey – Yeah. And so this concept of doubt, like one of the things you’re talking about, like with my kids, I’ve had my kids go through faith crises and and I think one of the hardest parts that I dealt with, and maybe somebody needs to hear. This was when I confronted my parents or my leaders about my doubts. The responses I got.

We’re so fearful and End.

Casey – On their end. And so it really, that’s what destabilized me more than anything. Oh, these guys don’t have the spiritual, maybe capacity to withstand a question that that really through me for a loop.

Yeah.

Casey – And I was like that. That was so deep stabilizing that my spiritual leaders could not handle a question that I that was the number one reason I was like I have to leave like if they can’t handle this.

In some ways it sends you back, maybe to a similar stage and of faith.

But I hear you. I hear you

I actually like to talk a little bit abou

how that is. You know, when we try to express these doubts, try to bring them up

in. I’ll just use mixed company, whether that’s

in a faith community, you know, in a Sunday school class on a Sunday or

in other group settings, you know, or family settings, or whatever it is hard

to bring up.

Casey – So I have a rule, and I’m in elders.

Mega Okay.

Casey I actually have an apple watch, and I I check my heart rate before I say anything.

Meagan Okay.

Casey – I’d be. That’s from experience where I would just like you.

you know, and I get to say something. And I was like, you know.

Yeah.

Casey – You. The whole thing is that this is the fascinating part of this whole stages of faith. Is we when we are in duality of right and wrong we’re in stage one stage 2.

So even though, like we’re progressing along these stages when I go to church, I’m going. No, they’re saying that wrong. They’re not getting history right. They’re not doing whatever I throw myself right back into stage one stage 2.

Meagan Yeah.

Casey – So rather than just being like, I’m in a in

which is hard. So hard. Because. you know, you want to get things right for the next generation, and all these different things, whatever that means. But but yeah, talking with company. I don’t know. Some people. I just don’t even have conversations with. We don’t simply we just don’t go there.

Meagan That’s a valid answer,

Casey – I mean. To get to the place where I felt comfortable enough with myself not to feel like I needed a validation from somebody.

Yeah

Casey – That’s not easy.

Meagan I think that’s wise.

Casey – I. Still, we are tribal people, like evolutionarily so wanting to belong and and be long and be heard from. Our own tribe is so important. I don’t care what anybody says. You’ll never, ever you will. We will always want some form of validation. It’s why I do my pot. My Instagram account.

Meagan Yeah.

Casey – Want to be helpful, but I also want to be a part of the community and be a part of the tribe. Still, like.

Meagan Yeah, I get that. I totally get that. That’s one of the reasons I do this. Yes, I absolutely agree. We are very tribal, very much in need of that feeling of community.

So I have appreciated your time so very much today. One question I like to ask all of my guests  to kind of wrap up is, what does it mean to you to live beyond the shadow of doubt.

Casey – Hmm! You know, from from a Latter Day Saint Theological perspective. that we are W. Literally supposed to inherit all the father half this is kind of our our doctrine is that we will become you know we will be able to it. Progress to to higher states of being. There is the only way that that will happen is through. Doubt is doubting. Every stage like you have to like. One of the things that I think has happened is at at every stage. We have to doubt the how small we made God in order to progress into a higher way of of living. So I see, is living beyond the shout of doubt is is like as just running towards bigger questions, not away from them.

Meagan I love it!

Casey – Not only that, but I want, like my, because listen, we we have explored more of the this is science. I don’t know if I’m saying this right? But I, from what I understand, we’ve explored more of the surface of the moon that we have the ocean like, I think there’s only 5% of the ocean has been explored. We are discovering God’s creations, and how big and how vast this world and this universe is that the only way we’re going to expand is through doubting the stage. We’re in right now.

Yeah.

Casey – And going. You don’t know. I think there’s something bigger for me. I think. There, and this is what I try to tell my kids. And if we try to normalize like we’re talking about to bring this around normalizing the conversation and the expectation, at least with my kids, I’m going. Yeah, you’re gonna doubt. Like, if you don’t, then you’re not progressing. You’re not moving. In fact. I don’t think staying for me. Staying in stage one and 2 is not, does not in. It’s not a big enough gospel. It’s not a universal gospel, because it’s very tribal. It’s like we’re the ones we’re the only ones on this planet that have the truth. The only, you know. No like the doubt, doubting that, and going and so moving into us into further progress in my mind, I’m going. God’s so big it has to include all of God’s children, all of God’s creations, all of these things. So I welcome doubt in my life, because I know that it’s going to mean growth, and I know that’s also probably going to be painful. One of the things I’m doubting right now. If I’m going to be honest with you. One of the things I’m learning in the living school is my my approach, like I’m trying to in my mind. like So much of our ego creates this illusion that we are doing something. Sometimes we do things just to to feed our ego, and that illusion gets shattered. And maybe one way I can put this is that I? How do I put this? I I guess what I’m trying to say is that we are constantly going to have to doubt the illusions that we create, the stories that we create because they’re.

I think Adam Miller put it really well. His concept of sin was living a small story and living in a small story, and I think when we doubt that story we give, we route, we we leave room for expansion.

Meagan Yeah, that’s so true. We’re going to have to constantly doubt our illusions in order to leave room for expansion.

Casey – Yeah.

Meagan Love that I love, that that is a perfect note to end on. That’s beautiful.

Casey – I think we ought to con to link cause I maybe I got a little too complex there. I think we ought to link. Brian Mclaren is 4 stages of faith.

Meagan For sure.

Casey That can read along, because because it’s a really great model. It is, it is. I will definitely leave a link, and I have an episode coming out that’s going to give an outline of those.

Casey – Good

Yeah, yeah.

Meagan Thank you. So so much for your time and your insight and your story and your wisdom. While it really touched my heart when you shared in the beginning how you kept all of this to yourself for 8 8 years! My heart goes out to you. That is a long time.And so I’m glad that more and more conversations are happening.

Casey – The honestly pioneering paradox for me is my way of simply just making statements and saying. Oh, whoever’s out there who’s struggling with doubt or whatever it’s. It’s my kind of plea and cry to say I did. I spent 8 years in silence. I just want people to know they’re not alone that they’re.  Yeah.

They’re not. They’re not crazy. They’re legitimate reasons for people to struggle.  And you’re not crazy.

Meagan you know. That’s yeah.That’s so. That’s so important and so valid and valiant. Even that’s probably one of the hardest parts of all of this is when you feel alone, so.

Casey – Yeah, thank you so much for. Yeah.

Casey – And I love. What you’re doing is so important is so amazing. And I want to definitely share it more. So I appreciate that we’ll continue this conversation.

Meagan So I have a few questions I’d like to throw out to my guests just to get to know you a little bit better in the end.

Casey – Sure,

Meagan  just. Final questions. I’m looking for one. Just one word answers, just really quick. So tell us your favorite book. You’ve mentioned quite a few already.  But if you.

Casey – Lonesome. Don’t lonesome, don’t.

Meagan Awesome Okay, are you an introvert or an extrovert?

Casey – Extrovert. Yeah.

And do you have a favorite artist?

Casey – Caravaggio. Oh!

Casey – Wait. I take people to roam, can I tell you? Just

with our.  Core.  I was. I was in the the.  I was on a photo shoot in Rome, 2,019

and I had just arrived at the Rome airport 7 30 in the morning.

and I was a baggage claim, and my friend went to use the rest room, and somebody cameos that stood right next to me a baggage claim 2 feet away. It was just me and this other guy in the whole place.

and I look over and and I go.

And I thought to myself, I think that’s Michael Stipe, the lead singer of Rm.

And unlike  in it, I was like, I’m gonna regret this if I don’t say something. So I said.  Excuse me by chance, are you, Michael Stipe? And he says I am.

Meagan No way.

Casey – Way, and I’m like That I didn’t.

Casey – I didn’t know what to do, so just put my hand out for a handshake.

and he’s like.

what are you doing in Rome? I’m like, I’m on a photo shoot. And he’s like, that’s what I’m doing, too. And he was. He had a photo. He’s kind of did some photography work, and he was doing an exhibit.

And he said, he said, are you going to see the Caravaggio

Caravaggio paintings? And I was like I didn’t even know who it was. I I kinda had known a little bit.

but I like to say that Michael Stipe introduced me to Caravaggio and and I totally understand what he was talking about, and why he was so excited about Caravaggio. But that’s that’s my favorite artist.

I’m gonna have to dive deeper. That’s awesome. What a great story.

Casey – Yeah.

Okay. Are you an id owl or morning lark?

Casey – Night, owl.

Meagan And do you do still, or carbonated water, or you diet soda fans.

Casey – Good question. Carbonated water. I have a soda.

Stream! It’s took me 20 years to gain that appreciation, but I like it. Love it.

and do you have a celebrity crush.

Casey – Penelope Cruz. My wife knows, too, so we’re good. There.

So you’re good. Okay? And then the furthest place you’ve traveled.

Casey – Probably Malaysia, Singapore.

Meagan Oh, you’ve been there! Oh, that’s on my bucket list.

Casey – Yeah, it’s cool.

That is.

Casey – Probably the third of this. Yeah.yeah, that was a long flight.

Meagan Oh, yeah, we’ve flown to New Zealand. That was long.

Casey – Oh, yeah, that’s so strange. Tomorrow.

Casey – Yeah.

Meagan Oh, Casey, it has been a pleasure to get to know.

Casey – Likewise so much fun. I love what you’re doing. Blessings to do so amazing!You, too, Rob.

You, too. You, too. I’m I’m so grateful to make this connection. Yeah, likewise.

Casey – Likewise. Okay, we’ll see you.  Okay bye, bye.