Episode 118: Turning “us vs. them” into “WE” with Michelle Peper

Meagan – welcome everybody to today’s episode of beyond the shadow of doubts. So glad you’re here. Thank you for taking time out of your schedule to be with us. I have a longtime friend virtual. Anyway, Michelle Pepper with me. We met a couple 3 years ago on Instagram. I think. Michelle. Yeah.

Michelle – Yes, yes, we did.

Meagan – Going through this evolution, this pivot in our faith journey that I don’t know about you. I didn’t intend I didn’t. you know. See it coming necessarily has presented lots of interesting scenarios along the way and so I’m always grateful to get to have these conversations and share with one another, where? Where we’re at, how we’re navigating, how we’re doing, and so on. So thank you.

Michelle – Too. Thank you.

Meagan – Thanks for coming on. I was like to get started with turning the the floor over to you. Just introduce us to yourselves to our introduce yourself. Sorry, but to us just share about your background, your family, all of those things.

Michelle – Okay. Well, I was born in Southern Idaho, back in the olden days. I’m 59 years old now. So back in 1965 to 2 active Lds parents. I grew up in a very loving home, good good family, an older sister and a younger brother. Couldn’t have asked for a better family. It just just great. My family’s history. Both sides of the family go back to the beginning of the church 6 generations or more joined overseas, lived in Napu cross the plains, did the polygamy settled Utah all of that, all of it. So steeped in Lds. You know. Ancestry in my family? So so that’s interesting, you know, as I journey through my faith at this point in my life.

Let me think my dad was a biology teacher. My mom started out as a stay at home, mom. But bio teachers in Idaho aren’t paid well, my dad also worked as a forest ranger in the summer he taught piano lessons year round, or at least school year round. He’s a fabulous tenor an organist, and so music was kind of my thing as well. I was never athletic, and I loved singing. I played the cello. I sang in choirs. That that was always my love. growing up and still still do love it. So

I went to Lds business College met my husband, who was at the University of Utah. We were in the same student ward. He was investigating the church when he went, got to college, and he got baptized while he was in that ward, and we started dating the following summer and got married, Mono within a year or so of dating, and we have 3 amazing children, our son, who is 32, and has a lovely wife and 2 darling kids. Our daughter, who is 30, and has a wonderful husband and a darling dog, and our 19 year old daughter, who is currently a student at the University of Utah. And that’s basically us.

Meagan – Do you have a lovely family heritage? There.

Michelle – We do? We do?

Meagan – You go way back.

Michelle -: I was I and I’m you know I’m not big into family history. I don’t do a lot of that, but some of my relatives have bound books together, and there’s wonderful stories. But I was curious about the polygamy. So I got on ancestry app and was looking back. And yeah, definitely. Several of my Greats have several wives and many children, and it was just very interesting.

Meagan – I go back on one side of my family quite a ways on the other side. It’s a little bit later. Pioneers, I guess we could say.

Michelle – Yes

Meagan – Well, you know what strikes me, Michelle, as you were sharing. That is as much as those who came before you were trailblazers in their own way. You are a trailblazer in the here and the now in your own way, so I’m really excited for you to share more of your journey with our those who are listening, because this is not easy, and it takes it up not just a notch, probably 10 or 20 notches, to get behind a microphone and share it in a more public way.

Michelle -I don’t know. I mean, I’m sure I have cousins, and I’m sure there are people in my lines who have left, but it just sort of feels, you know, like suddenly I was feeling a little guilty. I’m the weak link to say.

Meagan – This is a complicated space for sure, and there’s lots of ways that we can look at it. And of course. yeah, our our mind tells us one thing, our heart feels another, and.

Michelle – Tight.

Meagan – I I know I don’t have to tell you that we get to define our our journey and get to carve out that space, but that is in no way to diminish what I know are real and true, and deep feelings that come up. And I I I just honor that, and and thank you for being real about that.

Michelle – And thank you for saying that because oftentimes, when people leave the church they’re talked as if they’re lazy and just selfish or but unless you’ve gone through it, you do not understand the difficulty and the pain and the struggle of it.

Meagan – Yeah, it’s it’s not something a person wakes up one day and just makes a decision about, you know, like putting on what pair of jeans you’re gonna wear for the day or something. It’s just not that it just doesn’t even touch it. So before we get to that, I wanted to talk a little bit. You know. one of the reasons I created this podcast is because I was sent on this major pivot, almost a tailspin. Really not not a tailspin. I don’t know if that’s the right word. A head spin.

Michelle – Depending on one way or another.

Meagan – When I learned that you know our child identified as queer, and just, mostly because of trying to align that with the beliefs that I had been raised with, and that go back for generations as well. and I finally figured out how much shame and how much you know. Just negative feelings were coming up with for me as I was having these questions, or even just considering trying to consider an alternative point of view. right, allow those doubts to come in.

And so I am all about normalizing faith journeys that they’re just like there are okay. Twins might, you know, genetically look like. But just like there are no 2 beings totally alike. Our journeys are as unique as we are. I really believe that I truly believe that.And so I just want to contribute to this space that your journey is valid. My journey is valid, and so is our neighbors and and your family members.

I I get it that it’s idealistic to think that folks are going to be open to that, or maybe even, you know, receptive to that idea. But at the very minimum, you know. My hope is that we can at least honor one another’s for agency. Our our own.

Michelle – Beautiful.

Meagan – Free will to just navigate, as we feel to our core that this is what we’re to do. So I, you know, keeping our minds and our hearts open to lean into uncertainty. That takes practice. I think it’s skill. and it doesn’t mean that we’re less faithful. Or there were not a quote unquote, true believer. Right. It doesn’t mean any of that unless somebody chooses to believe it or doesn’t realize that they’re actually you know, leaning into that tell? Can you share with us? Do you remember how? How was that part navigate? How was navigating that part for you when questions and and doubts come up. You also have a queer child.

Michelle – Yes, yes,

Meagan – That was part of it. But yeah, whatever you want.

Michelle – Yeah. And that’s not when my question started coming up started this journey before. So that in a way, it’s been that was that was easy. you know, for me, because I was already on the journey. But you know I I spent most of my life just tamping down any questions, you know, like I I would never ever look into polygamy. I didn’t want to know how it got started. I didn’t want to know, because I didn’t want. I knew it might shake me, and I didn’t like questioning, questioning. My faith was just a you don’t do it. You don’t do it. So I spent most of my life just never questioning my faith. And also and and I just.

It’s been most of my life trying to avoid discomfort. You know I want. I want life to be easy, and so I would avoid conflict with people too. Just, you know. Not. Argue just kind of people, please whatever, as long as you know, if if whatever I can do to make peace around here and make sure everything’s fine and everyone’s happy. So so I almost feel like those go hand in hand a little bit.

If if we avoid conflict, we avoid uncertainty in the relationships. If we avoid questions. We avoid uncertainty in our faith. You know all that stuff. It’s just trying to just status quo status quo status quo. That’s that’s how I lived a lot of my life. so I think and maybe I’m getting off from the question here. But but I did start to allow questioning to come in around the time of like black lives. Matter, you know, 2,01520 16. I can’t really remember when that was 2,017, maybe 2,019. I don’t recall Trump Presidency. All of that.

I started noticing. It was kind of more my politics than my religion that I started questioning first, it seems safe to question your politics sometimes, you know. Let’s not. You’re not gonna make God angry, you know. So that’s okay. So I I think that’s where I allowed the questioning to.

Meagan – Okay.

Michelle – To politics.

Meagan – Seemed a little more s quote safe than questioning your religion. Okay.

Michelle – Right? Right? Right? So so I think that was kind of the first chink. And and I’m I’m gonna back it up a little bit And and my husband and I had gone through a little bit of difficulty in our relationship prior to that and I had to deal with some real conflict and some real difficulties, you know. Suddenly I couldn’t smooth everything over, and hard conversations had to be. Had and it was really difficult. But I think because of thatI saw some real benefit like suddenly, I’m like. Wait a minute. I can do hard things and survive and even grow, and maybe even flourish. So as hard as that was having to face things that I always swept under the rug. I it was a a real growth opportunity. And I and I grew from that we grew from that as a couple and so I think that helped me start questioning other things and going. Wait a minute.

Being uncomfortable isn’t isn’t all that bad? And actually, it’s kind of good, you know. So I started questioning my politics and what was going on in politics, and particularly during black lives matter. There were on social media. I had friends who are very, very strong Christians, and preached. you know, on their platforms about love and God, and this and they were just saying really terrible things about. I remember when Colin Kaepernick took an E and that, and the vitriol coming from my religious Christian friends just shocked me. And that’s kind of when I started questioning like, Wait a minute. Why would people who say they love Jesus and love each other. you know, not try to seek understanding of what this man was trying to accomplish? And I really really looked into what Colin Kaepernick did, what he had to say, and my heart just went out to him. And I, you know, I just suddenly started questioning. why are people good people saying ugly things? Well, that kind of broke it open. It sounds like you are experiencing a major paradigm shift. Absolutely.

Meagan – And it was something you couldn’t look away from, or or unsee.

Michelle – Yeah, you know, once you you can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube, and I really got on fire about trying to to educate myself and allow others to educate me on the black experience. Because so many white Christian friends that I knew were telling me that that racism didn’t exist, and I could see it all over the place. And so I just sought understanding. And you know, the more you get proximity to someone whose life is different than yours, the more it breaks your heart open, and the more compassionate you become, and the more empathetic you become, and the more loving you become. And and and then you’re like. you know. Wow! I have been so closed off. And so. you know, kind of in a bubble. I didn’t even know. This is how it was. You know.

Meagan – That that is so true. I love that proximity just kind of cultivates compassion. That’s so. That’s so true. And what I’m hearing from you is. even though it was I don’t know. Brought up fear for you. You realized it was just an emotion that you were going to feel like I heard you when you’re like questioning. My faith. you just don’t do it. Spent most of my life never questioning my faith. We, I think. steer clear of that uncertainty.

Michelle – Well, because there’s no need to be uncertain. We have all the answers in in the Lds. Faith, we have all the answers, and I’ve spent so many years saying how grateful I was to know where I came from, why I am here and where I am going. Just you know, life couldn’t be easier again, like no uncertainty. I loved it, loved it.

Meagan – It’s much easier to go through life, or or I should say, let’s say this way. It takes a lot less energy to go through life with that type of viewpoint. What I’m really struck by here is you had to actively give yourself permission to accept what you were seeing to really and just to internalize it, and not ignore what your your your inner wisdom was telling you. Tell us about that process because we I think we tend to push up against that. We don’t always give ourselves permission to to listen to our inner voice.

Michelle – Yeah, a a. And that’s an interesting thing that you say, because I, as I pondered that there was a time again right around the time that maybe my husband and I were going through some difficulties. And I have always been always, I mean, clear back to at least High school, anyway. in connection with my inner voice. So, and I always just that to me. That’s the Holy Ghost. I had a very close relationship with the Holy Ghost, and I really in my mind it was Jesus. You know, Jesus speaking to me through the Holy Ghost, so I felt very connected. And I’m from, and and I wouldn’t always listen. You know I would ignore it, but but I remember. Very distinctly getting promptings. To it to stop wasting time and start becoming. I it. The the voice was basically telling me. I needed to become more introspective because I wasn’t.

Meagan – Hmm.

Michelle – I was ignoring myself.

Meagan – Wow!

Michelle – I would be busy, and I would this and I would that. And I kept feeling this prompting to be introspective, and I was like I I did not want to do that, so I just I ignored it for a very long time.

Meagan – Okay. I’m gonna pause. You right there. Why do you think you didn’t want to.

Michelle – Because comfortable.

Meagan – Okay.

Michelle – And I knew it would be uncomfortable and I do not like to be uncomfortable.

Meagan –

Michelle – We might have to change.

Meagan – Okay.

Michelle – And then that’s not easy.

Meagan – Yeah.

Michelle – And when you change.

Michelle – how does that impact your relationships? How does that impact the rest? Yeah, you know the rest of your life. And and maybe it’s gonna be too hard, like whatever I’m supposed to change to might require more effort and more work. And like, you know, I’m busy enough. I got all these callings. I’ve got kids. I got a job. We run a business. I don’t have time to be introspective and change. I got stuff to do.

Meagan – Yeah, that motivational triad. Right? You’re trying to retain that energy. But also. I think it’s it’s more than that, right? You were truly trying to maintain a sense of safety. Sorry.

Michelle – I was avoiding.

Meagan – That, too, that, too, which also, I think, lends to feel, you know, trying to feel safe. And those familial relationships, community relationships, which is, which is very real.

Michelle – Yes.

Meagan – And and cannot be understated. Yeah.

Michelle – We live in a very small rural community, very conservative our ward is our people, you know. I just the thought of not I already, didn’t I? I’m already a little different. I’ve always, never been like super orthodox intense, pretty laid back. Mormon. You know what I mean like. I, you know I just didn’t feel like every single thing a prophet said was. you know, a commandment, and you know we’re pretty pretty nuanced. So that was even already kind of hard to fit in here, because everyone was so so orthodox, you know. So the thought of not fitting in any more than I already, you know. Didn’t was just like Oh, you know.

Meagan – I feel that I feel.

Michelle – Very, yeah, thank you.

Meagan – Thank you for being so real about that. Yeah, yeah.

Michelle – That’s how it was. That’s how it is.

Meagan – So on that note. If we can shift a little bit. let’s talk about what that has been like to navigate this journey. being part of a faith community. You know one where your roots grow are very deep in that community, and you did experience that resistance, that feeling, not feeling safe if if you’re to follow that or become more introspective, as you felt the Holy Ghost telling you to do so right. What what was it like when you we’re thinking about acknowledging all of this in a more public way, you know, in your faith community whether that’s actually at church on Sunday, maybe. or in other ways, that your paths cross, you know, midweek, or whatever and maybe you really never did. Maybe the the safety or comfort level wasn’t quite there. Just can you share a little bit about what that’s like?

Michelle – Yes, I and I’m happy to, and it’s my husband was on the journey at the same time. I was so and he’s he’s a little more willing to rock the boat. He, you know he he’s got a little. I don’t know. He’s just not afraid of that kind of stuff. But you know, so we’ve lived in this community for 20 years. And at the time that we were starting to experience. you know, I don’t know political questions. He would ship.

Meagan – Okay.

Michelle – And then at the A as soon as he was released. After 5 years I was made the Release Society president. So we were kind of going through this. as you know, publicly facing the or like in higher up callings, right? And and after I was made release society President, he was put in the State Presidency as the Executive Secretary. So we were kind of struggling with or changing. I guess you could say, while we were kind of really engaged and involved. We. We’ve been very involved from the get go here and but I you could. I could see it. I could see it happening in real time on Facebook, you know, where people were posting, you know. Even the politics back then were really hot and heavy, and there was a lot of anti black lives, matter and anti this, and you know, pro trump that, and anti trump that and and and we were quite engaged in the Black Lives matter standing up, for you know the black community at the time and trying to educate ourselves. So we were publicly sharing our support, and that was very challenging for ward members for their bishop and or their release society president to say those things but the fallout people were still our friends, you know, we were still engaged. Still, this is our social group. So you know, we were able to politically have our our place, and and it didn’t disrupt our lives too terribly much. so so that was fine. But when I was released as release society President, I was called to be a seminary teacher, and that’s kind of when things got really tricky for me. When I was given that calling I received a very strong prompting to become an ally for Lgbtq. And I’m like what you know, like, well, okay. And maybe it was just the next step from black lives matter like educating myself more on more marginalized people. And so it wasn’t a challenge for me. I like, okay, cause I I like, I told you I’ve always felt very connected with the Holy Ghost, and when I received that prompting it felt important, and it felt like it went with the calling. And I thought, Well, that must be. I’m gonna have, you know, some queer kids or a queer kid in my class, and I’ve gotta be a safe space. So I dove in 100, Richard Osler, his book and his podcast and Ben and Charlie’s podcast really just, I ate it up.

Meagan – Yeah, just a sponge, just a.

Michelle – Just a sponge, and I would listen to it on my way to seminary in the mornings, and I’d be crying, you know, just bawling with some of these stories. So I was a sponge, and I was like, and I think I had probably a couple of queer kids in my class, plus. I know one kid whose sister was so it felt very. I don’t know just like it was meant to be.

Meagan – So for the benefit of those who are listening that are not of the Lds faith background. I like to just kind of give a little definition for these various forms of volunteering that you’re talking about the seminary teacher role that you played is pretty significant. It requires a daily commitment of getting up very early in the morning and teaching a religious class.

Michelle – Right.

Meagan – I.

Michelle – High school students.

Meagan – High school students to the youth. And so you were placed in a very Well, in a very prominent space. What’s the word I’m looking for. You were placed in a spot where you could really watch out and care for those queer students. So that was significant that you felt that prompting that you fill.

Michelle – That was.

Meagan – And then the previous 2 Collings you mentioned your husband being Bishop. That’s kind of similar to in a past door over the congregation. and then you were president over the the web.

Michelle – Women’s organization. Yes.

Meagan – Or at the of your congregation. Yeah.

Michelle – Yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So those were all time intensive and people intensive. And the seminary teacher calling, yes, I had to get up at 5 every morning. And I had ninth grade through twelfth grade students, basically the 2 wards that are in our community. They were all basically in my class.

Meagan – Can you share with us? What did that look like for you? Knowing that you’re your inner, your your inner voice? The Holy ghost had shared to be an ally to queer students. Queer folks, you know. What was that like? Then, being a teacher, knowing that some of the doctrine and policy was not friendly toward that group.

Michelle – Yeah. It gave me great confidence that the Church and their stance was wrong. And and because of my black lives, matter, education, and I’ve read the race in the priesthood gospel topics essay that the Church had put out. I also knew that you know they had banned black people from the priesthood and the temple for decades and decades until 1978. And and to me that you know and and basically church says, Yeah, you know it. It is originally they had blamed that that that’s what God wanted. But in the gospel topics, I say, they were like, Yeah, we don’t, really. We don’t really know why you know. So it just solidified to me that these prophets and apostles make mistakes, and that that there this was a mistake this. Their anti Lgbtq stance was a mistake, so it just gave me confidence to feel strongly about loving and supporting and accepting.

Meagan – Without.

Michelle – Question. I just didn’t question it, because God told me the Spirit told me the Holy Ghost, whoever at the time it was the Holy Ghost told me to love them.

Meagan – And so how did that? If if it did, you know, influence your teaching with the students.

Michelle – Well, it absolutely did I? Never, ever once uttered the words marriages between a man and a woman. If I think there was one lesson where I felt like I couldn’t get around it, because it basically was the whole lesson. But I was careful to say the church’s current stance is you know, kind of left it feeling like you know. I I that could change. I didn’t really say that, but I I and I redacted. I redacted a lot of things because I noticed in the Lesson Manual. They made a lot of lessons about marriage is between a man and a woman that didn’t even apply to the Scriptures that we were studying. But somehow they found ways to to get that in there, and I just.

Meagan – Hmm.

Michelle – I just redacted I. And by my third year, like I was redacting so much, I was like, I can’t do this anymore. I feel like a fraud. Because I’m not. I’m not I. I can’t say what I really wanna say, because I would have you know, parents with pitchforks probably at my door. But I but I’m not saying what the church is expecting me to say. I’m you know. I’m really taking stuff out of the lessons now, because I just I’m not comfortable telling these kids some of these things. And so I didn’t teach after the third year which I had planned on. That’s the year my daughter graduated, anyway. So it all worked out by that third year. I was like, who I cannot do this anymore Thank goodness, I don’t feel like I need to do this anymore. So.

Meagan – What I’m hearing is at that point. It was just feeling very out of alignment for you.

Michelle – Very, very, and there were a lot of little epiphanies that I had as a seminary teacher about other things things that would never the year that we taught church history, we were required to teach from the Gospel topics essays. So I had to read things that you know, they wanted us to basically inoculate the kids from all the the church history that they were hearing on the Internet, that the Church had never taught us. So they wrote the Gospel topic essays basically to share some of that so that the kids could go to a church resource and see. Oh, There were 5 different versions of the first vision, you know. I’d heard that. But now the Church is telling me that. But the Church would try to do it in a faith promoting way right? But I had to read all of these essays, and and as a 57 at the time 56 year old woman who’d been taught something completely different my entire life. I started to get a little angry and feel a little betrayed and lied to, and so I was a little too old for the inoculation. I guess the way I would put that.

Meagan – So. So here’s what I’m seeing. If I can kind of start from the beginning of our interview till now. You know you were raised in the Lds. Faith. you go back generations upon generations. You kind of checked all the boxes we could say. You did what you were taught and what you thought was the right thing to do. and then in your 50 s. Maybe a little bit before your 40 s.

Michelle – Fifties, not fifties.

Meagan – Use your eyes started to open to some things that maybe you hadn’t quite seen before, and you hadn’t for whatever reason, you know who knows why it happens when it does And this was a real experience for you. You didn’t make it up. You experience the the emotions that you experienced the discomfort, the fear, the what ifs, and how do I move forward? And how do I say this out loud? And this is this is what I mean about faith journeys right? This is your journey, and you. You are defining it, and it’s in a partnership, though with the divine. I can. I can sense that from you.

Michelle – Well, and and let me tell you this, Megan.

Meagan – Beautiful.

Michelle – It is. And this is this is where I why, I can never probably deny some type of divine or deity, or something bigger than me. Because the middle of my third year teaching Seminary my daughter was in my class. I had her all 3 years, and she this was her senior year. She was hanging around after class, where usually, you know, I’m cleaning up and everyone’s gone, and I’m like, you know, she’s in my way I’m kind of tripping over. I’m like, what’s what’s going on? She said I need to talk to you. I said, Okay. and and she said I think I’m gay. And that was like suddenly it was like it all made sense like, oh, maybe maybe I was prompted not just to be a safe space for the kids in my class. But you know, for my daughter. You know. And I was so prepared and so in love with the Lgbtq community that you know there was really no beats skipped. I just kind of looked at her. And I I’m not sure I said the right thing, but I said, Are you sure? And then and then she said, Well, I think so. And and I said. and I didn’t want to say anything wrong. You know I just said. That’s fine, that’s fine, that’s great. I’m glad you know. Let’s you know. Do you want to talk about it? She said. Well, I have to get to school, and we just hugged, and we both kind of cried and that was the end of the sadness. you know, when.

Meagan –

Michelle – Talked later. We were just matter of fact, and this is what it is. And I told her Dad and he loved it. We watched a movie with a queer, queer couple in it that weekend as a family just having a great time, and it was just turned out to be the most beautiful experience, but it would not. It would not have been that way had I not.

Meagan – Yeah.

Michelle – Prompting I would have been. I would have said all the wrong things, and done all the wrong things, which is fine. That happens too.

Meagan – And we.

Michelle – He would have survived.

Meagan – you would have been able to navigate regardless. But clearly your learning and leaning into cultivating safe spaces and following your inner intuition. as well as you know, learning to step into brave spaces, really helped prepare you for that moment with your daughter.

Michelle – Yeah. Well, she was so brave I just but she knew.

Meagan – Yeah. She was watching you.

Michelle – Right, right.

Meagan – Yeah, I believe that I do so. How has your faith journey been different than think about little Michelle, you know decades ago. How has it been different than perhaps what you expected?

Michelle – Well, you know my whole life journey. It’s like funny, you know. I I I say this to a lot of friends like when you’re 15 or 20 years old. Can you see your life, you know, and you imagine your future. Does it look anything like what you imagined? And most people say no, not necessarily their fate, but just their life, you know. But honestly.and that’s fine. But honestly, I never ever expected that my faith would not stay the same. You know. So that is a real surprise to me. And I could feel it happening. And I was like. Oh, man, you know. Yeah, I’m not sure I can handle this. You know. I this is not. This is so out of left field. But I had to go with, you know my integrity and follow. Follow that through, but absolutely did not see myself ever leaving the Lds faith ever.

Meagan – I appreciate that. I think it’s so important to acknowledge how how sacred these journeys are and how unique and individual and personal. And it’s not because you lost your way. You know it’s it’s because that’s what you felt the space that you felt called and drawn to go to, and to be.

Michelle – Very true that that spirit that I’ve always listened to was a spirit that guided me in through along the way, and has never left me. and it’s still there, you know. I and which is which is why, even though it’s been difficult it hasn’t been a question. You know what I mean. I just I’ve always felt like I’ve been listening to that voice for 40 some years. I’m not gonna doubt it now.

Meagan – Yourecognize that you had? No, you had created a relationship. And so you knew when it was speaking to you. And you know for our listeners. If I could just invite you to. you know, wenever loved ones, or those that are close to you, you see them on a journey that looks differently from yours. I invite you to consider the uniqueness and the divinity that is there in their journey and that that is how an all loving God is communicating with them, helping them grow, providing them with what is needful, and for them in this mortal journey. just like. and all loving God is doing the same for you. I’m so passionate about. Let’s let’s not just blur these lines between us and them. Let’s just erase them. Can we meet on the bridge? Let’s meet and connect, and just love one another and not make one path. you know evil and the other good. There’s just. I’m I’m a parent of a child who identifies as transgender, and I’ve just learned how little there well, that there’s there’s no black and white when it comes to life.

Michelle – Beautifully, said Megan.

Meagan – There’s just it’s that’s just humanity trying to stay safe and stay in the certain zone and stay away from the discomfort and just like you learned in your youth well, few years ago, which is still very young, I just mean.

Michelle – So it is. Megan is very.

Meagan – Got it. Primary date, you know. You you realized, okay, I felt uncomfortable. If that wasn’t great, it wasn’t, you know. fun. But it was doable.

Michelle – And and there was real fruit from it. Not just not just that. It was uncomfortable and and hard, but I lived, but I actually benefited.

Meagan – Yeah. that’s that’s a really great point, too. So a final question for you that I like to ask all of my guests. And that is. what does it mean to you to live beyond the shadow of doubt?

Michelle – That that is an interesting question. Because the shadow of doubt is where living in the shadow of doubt is where there’s fear. I think, and and and that’s kind of, I think. when you let doubt cause fear that you want to box yourself in and kind of box your life in so that you can avoid that fear. When you step outside of that shadow, and you embrace the doubt and the uncertainty. It literally is like being freed from a cage to me. It’s the most freeing thing I have ever experienced in my life, and I did not know that I wasn’t free. I felt incredibly like, you know. just following the rules that I was given was was what gave me freedom. But but I wasn’t free to really love or feel empathy, or have compassion or mercy for a lot of the thems.

Meagan – Yeah.

Michelle – Only for the uses.

Meagan – Yeah.

Michelle – And I served and gave and and offered up my time, but pretty much only to the uses you know a minister to the uses.

Meagan – That’s really interesting perspective. That is actually. yeah, that’s interesting. I Very.

Michelle – But when you get out suddenly you’re allow yourself to love the them. And suddenly they aren’t them anymore. They’re we.

And I find myself drawn towards people who I would have used to feel afraid of or judgmental of I just was sitting somewhere. I’m trying to think where it was. Maybe yesterday, the other day before. I think it was just yesterday this this group came into Fast food restaurant that I was eating at with my husband, and they looked from my, you know church, Lady Perspective, a little rough, you know, tattoos and some wild hair and some piercings, and I, instead of feeling afraid or judgment, I just love them. And I wanted to go talk to them. I really just felt this wanted. Just go sit at the table with them and get their story, and that is not something I used to be, you know. I used to just like, go. Oh, man, you know. Why do people, you know get all those tattoos, or whatever I would have said at the time? I just felt like, oh, man I bet they have such an interesting story. I would love to hear you know that what they’re doing, what they’re up to, what you know. What their life is like I don’t know. I just find myself noticing people that I used to try to avoid and wondering about them and wanting to know them, and wishing I could be their friends. I don’t know how to make those kinds of friends, I’m probably, too, and they probably look at me and go. She looks too tight. We’re not. but I’m glad there’s yeah.

Meagan – Much beauty in that. There’s so much beauty.

Michelle – And make.

Meagan – The.

Michelle – Happy.

Meagan – The divinity in everyone around us. I love your thoughts on, on the we focusing on the we turning that us versus them to we? That’s that’s a beautiful. you know. Segue, to to wrapping this lovely episode up. That’s, I think, where the divine is.

Michelle – Yes.

Meagan – Turning the Us. Versus them into. Let’s let’s evolve into the we that we already are. That’s already existent. Yeah.

Michelle – I agree. I agree. I that’s where I find the divine.

Meagan – Yeah. Well, I like to ask a few for fun questions that I don’t tell you about. Just.

Michelle – Yeah. Oh.

Meagan – One or 2 word answers to get to know me a little bit better. Tell us your favorite book.

Michelle – Oh, favorite is hard but impactful. I’m I’m gonna give you 2. 1. One was stamped from the beginning by Ibram Kendi.

Meagan – It.

Michelle – Incredibly. That was at the beginning of the Black Lives Matter journey that, I went on. And it’s just like a 600 page book, but powerful.

Meagan – Okay.

Michelle – Meaningful impactful for me. And then I just finished Trevor Noah’s book, born a crime and it’s about his life growing up in apartheid South Africa. Fascinating, interesting, much shorter lot easier of a read. He’s amazing storyteller. So many great little quotes that he, you know, just some really good stuff. So and that’s I’m saying that one because it’s fresh. But it was also impactful and very enjoyable.

Meagan – Well, great. Thank you for those recommendations. Who are you? An intro introvert or an extrovert? Would you say.

Michelle – I’ve always been an extrovert, but as I’ve gotten older I’m super happy to to, you know. Be. And my husband was always an introvert, and now he’s he drags me around and makes me socialize with people. So and I always enjoy it once he gets me there. So I still think I’m an extrovert. I’m just a lazy extrovert.

Meagan – Funny what age does to us? Right are you a night owl or a morning lark?

Michelle – Morning. I love to be a night owl, but I can’t do it. I’m just so tired, and I wake up at 5 or 6, and I I lay. I’ve learned to lay in bed as long as I can. No one enjoy it, but I’m awake. I wake up, Bernie

Meagan – Oh, I I would love to be a morning mark. Who is your favorite artist?

Michelle – Type of artist, music, paint.

Meagan – You pick.

Michelle – Oh, boy, hmm, wow! There’s so many artists. I I I gravitate to music. Probably

and that’s really hard to have a favorite. But and this is gonna be so like just outside the box.  But I love the Foo fighters and Dave girl, those are like I just. He’s just when I need when I need some.

Meagan – I love that.

Michelle – It. Just I just think that yeah, some great stuff.

Meagan – Awesome. Do you do still, or carbonated water? Or are you a diet soda fan.

Michelle – Oh, gosh! I’m a diet soda fan! I but I I love all the waters as well, but.

Meagan – Company.

Michelle – I’m in. Yeah, died. So does my, and.

Meagan – Do you have a celebrity? Crush.

Michelle – I don’t know I think I’m too old for that now. But it’s funny, right when you said that my mind went somewhere, so I must. But.

Meagan – Hey!

Michelle – I went straight to Colin Farrell.

Meagan – That’s awesome.

Michelle – So apparently I do. I didn’t.

Meagan – Apparently you do. That’s that’s great awareness. I love that. And then, finally, the first, this place you have traveled.

Michelle – Oh, wow! Well, I don’t know in mileage, but I’ve been to Budapest hungry. Florence and Rome and London. I think that’s all. Those probably Budapest might be the furthest.

Meagan – Fun fun places. I haven’t been to Budapest. But yeah, clearly, I don’t know how to say it, cause you said it differently.

Michelle – Oh, well, they they say Pesh Buddha! Pesh! Over there, and we we worked with some Hungarians, and they lived with us in in Texas for a while. So we learned how to say, Budapest.

Meagan – what a Great adventure. Yeah, wow.

So if folks wanted to contact you or just connect with you, what would be the easiest way for them to do that.

Michelle – Probably just my Instagram account would be the easiest edge of inside edge underscore of underscore inside on Instagram. That’s probably the easiest. And then, you know work from there. I do. Instagram Video calls with the some of my Instagram friends and those are really nice to Instagram just makes it so easy to connect. I think.

Meagan – Okay, well, I will leave that in the show notes, Michelle. It has been a pleasure to connect with you again and to have this conversation. Thank you so much.

Michelle – Oh, I loved it, Megan, thank you for asking.

Meagan – Absolutely.