Episode 112: I believe as the family goes, so goes the world w/ Liz Dyer founder of the Mama Bears

Meagan- Welcome. Everyone to the beyond, the shadow of doubt.

Podcast. Our episode today is gonna be amazing. I already know it. I can feel it in my bones. I have Liz Dyer with me

today. This is an An appointment we set

several months ago because Liz is a rock star. She is a very busy mama. and I’m so grateful, Liz, that you have taken time out

of that busy schedule to be here with me and our listeners today. So welcome.

Liz- Well, thank you. I’m happy to be here. It really is a pleasure.

Meagan – I met you in person. I was a little starstruck.

At pride, Frisco, last September, September of 2023,

and I’m gonna give you the floor in just a minute. But just a little brief background. Liz is the founder of the real mama bears.org.

and your best friend, Sarah Cunningham started.

The free mom’s free Mom Hugs group.

and by the time this episode with you and I publishes my interview with Sarah will have published. So I’m just thrilled to have you.

You and your stories, and your insight and your power.

and your conviction to be recorded here and be a part of the work that I do here

on this. Podcast so that, said Liz,

I want to turn the time over to you

to tell us all the things

about you. Your story your background.

including your faith journey and

how real mama bears got started in that

beautiful journey.

Liz-  Well, thank you. Yeah, that does take me back aways. My oldest son, came out as gay to me and his dad back in.

Think 2,006. Okay, so what’s that about 17 years ago.

Meagan- Well, we’re 2024. So

Liz- yeah, it was the fall of 2,006. So just a little more than 17 years ago, and

at that time we were very rooted in a conservative Christian community. and so it kind of rocked our boat. I was leading women’s ministry in a Southern Baptist church. I was writing and teaching Bible studies to Southern Baptist women, and speaking at Southern Baptist women’s events.

My husband was also very involved in you know our our faith community and both of our kids were involved in the youth ministry. They went on youth mission trips and sung in the youth choir. And we’re leaders in the Youth Ministry Department. So

you know, we had always been taught that everyone was created a heterosexual and cisgender that anything else was outside of God’s will. And therefore it wouldn’t be best for

a person, and so we were afraid we were uninformed, and we were afraid. And initially, we reacted out of that position.

We didn’t ever tell our son that you know we would disown him or anything like that.

but we were very concerned, and we thought he was going down the wrong path, because by the time he came to us he had already spent a lot of time searching the matter out for himself.

you know, coming to terms with it, talking to other people, getting a lot of information. So he was ahead of us on the journey.

and so it was really a difficult time for our family. but you know, as hard as it was, because we were so rooted in

conservative Christian faith community. It was really an advantage that I had been writing Bible studies for so many years, because that gave me the ability to and the foresight to know, to go to Scripture and really look at original language and historical context. And and, you know, really look at it where you’re not just Cherry picking something.

And so it didn’t take me long to realize that these verses that his

historically been used to you know. Teach us these things that we were believing

we’re not adequate for us to use in a conversation with our son, because these verses we’re talking about things like

rape and pagan rituals and prostitution, things that didn’t have anything to do with my son. My son just wanted to

do what most of us wanted to do. He wanted to meet some one day, fall in love, build a life with someone he just wanted to do it with someone of the same gender.

So when I couldn’t find you know the information there that I was looking for, I ended up

looking at other avenues. I, you know, talked to people. I listened to debates, I read books. I look at what I could find online. I looked at science and medicine.

but I’ll tell you what changed my mind. Me going. And that’s when I started listening to the stories that Lgbtq people were sharing

about their experiences when they wholeheartedly embrace the idea that it was wrong for them to be anything other than heterosexual and cisgender. And what I heard over and over again was that

that non-affirming theology was damaging them significantly. They were experiencing

you know, major depression and high anxiety. They were.They hated themselves. They were experiencing self loathing. Many of them didn’t wanna keep living.

Some had suicidal ideations, some just were praying to God that they wouldn’t live for long. That’s when I knew I had it wrong, because I had always been a woman of faith

who believe that if you followed God’s ways it would be good for you. It would produce some good fruit in your life. I didn’t think it would solve all your problems. That’s ridiculous.

but I certainly did not think it would make you hate yourself or want to give up on living.

I don’t want to say anything happen, you know, like that with a snap of a finger.

but it didn’t take me long to realize I had it wrong, because I always believe that

good theology should produce good fruit and it was obvious to me that non-affirming theology was producing bad fruit.

Meagan- Wow. wow! You know these episodes that I do are often so moving

for me as as a podcaster, but also as

a person of faith a person of conservative faith, who has

a queer child. My child identifies as transgender. But I’m going to share with you, Liz, what’s coming up for me? You are of Southern Baptist origin.

I am of the Lds faith of origin. Go back for generations back to some of the founding members.

and I have so much emotion coming up in me right now, like I

you. You said you were part of your women’s ministry around the time that your son came out.

I, too. have been involved in my faith throughout my life. From the time that they they have

kids. We call them callings have serve in callings, you know, from the time you’re around 1211, or 12 and

I know what that’s like to be all in both feet. all 10 toes, your entire body. You’re all in.

and II even served a mission for my my church for the Lds church.

and that work of sharing the gospel. The good news of Jesus Christ is something that

I have experienced. And This is such a beautiful cross section to me

of meeting with you. who is also a parent, a mama who is a a believer, who is a person of faith.

and we’re just talking. We’re just sharing our stories.

that really hit home for me into this journey as well. That’s what changes hearts is sharing stories. And I know that is

a big part of your mission. You share your story far and wide

through, you know. Virtual means, maybe like this, but also in in person, like you did at pride. Frisco.

This to me is what epitomizes the work of Jesus Christ.

Liz- Yeah. And you know one message I really want to get out there, Megan, is that

parents don’t have to choose between their faith and their child

the affirming our Lgbtq children, celebrating them as they are as they were created

is not in conflict with our faith. It might be in conflict with some

ways that certain denominations are structured. They’re You know. beliefs that they

embrace as a denomination. But I have searched, I have studied, I have prayed, I have listened, and it does not conflict with

anything that I can find in the Scripture that we, you know, base our faith on.

and I just don’t see how anyone can argue with the fact that good theology should produce good fruit. Yeah.

You know. Even Jesus said that when he was on the Sermon on the Mount he went through a whole litany

of things, you know, trying to help people understand

answers to questions they were asking. But towards the end of that sermon.

I mean. I’m kind of guessing here, but it seems to me he realized I can’t cover everything. I’ve got to give these people a way to discern for themselves. And so towards the end of that sermon.

I think, he basically said, you can figure most things out for yourself, because, he said.

look at it this way. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit, he said. You will know them by their fruits, and when he was saying, you will know them. What he was really talking about. There is at that time there were a lot of prophets roaming the earth.

teaching spiritual things, teaching things about God, teaching things about religion. and people were confused. They didn’t know who to follow what to do. One person was saying. This one person was saying that, and Jesus is saying.

look at what they’re teaching. and look at what it produces. If it produces something good, it’s of God.

So I just don’t know how anybody can argue with that like I said. That was, that was the turning point for me.

and that was I would say, you know, that we were working all this out within the first 18 months after my son came out.  I was lucky my son always wanted to maintain a relationship with us.

We were going through difficult times, but nobody ever said, I don’t want anything to do with you. We didn’t say it. He didn’t say it, so we were fortunate, because I do know families that.

you know, have split over this. and even after the parents sometimes come around.

It’s hard to for them to amend some of those relationships, but we were lucky that never happened.  and then

I started connecting with, you know a lot of people on this journey, because one thing you never want to do is go through life alone. You’re trying to meet people that are, you know, having a common experience as you.

and about 6 or 7 years into the journey. It was in 2,014, in the summer of 2,014, I decided to start a Facebook group for moms of Lgbtq plus kids.

I had started to make a lot of connections with other families. I loved working with other moms and and get together with them. And so I thought, well, I’ve made a lot of connections. I’ve learned a lot. I’ve got a lot of resources.

Let me try to create a space where other moms like me can connect with one another. I had basically 3 things in mind for that group. One, I did wanna provide a space where moms like me could connect with one another, find support, give support, find resources.

I also hoped that every mom who joined the group

would become wholeheartedly affirming of their Lgbtq kids, because I believe that was what their kids needed, and I believed it would be good for their family.

and I also hoped that the moms who joined the group would be inspired to want to work together and change the world and make it a kinder, safer, more inclusive place for all LGBT. Q. People to live, because Megan, by 2,014 I had learned that my gay son

had a lot more obstacles. a lot more challenges to to meet in his daily life just because of his sexual orientation.

Yup, absolutely. And I wanted to do something like about that. But I couldn’t do much by myself. II could see that he had a different path. He had to go on. Then someone like me or my my straight cisgender son.

And I wanted to do something to make the world a better place for him. I knew I needed other people to work with, and so I hope these moms would get inspired and want to get involved in that kind of work, too.

I have to say that my hopes and my dreams

have come true. We started that first Facebook group with about 150 moms. And today we have almost 40,000. I looked yesterday. It’s 39,800 and something moms in that one group. And today that one group is turned into the whole organization called Real Mama bears. We have more groups.

For a variety of people. We have more than 60 mama bear chapters. Most of those are in the Us. But we have a few in Canada, one in Uk and one in Australia.

and something I’m really proud of. We have 8 programs now that serve the Lgbtq community directly. Some of those programs are

just volunteer based with moms like me who do things like stand in at weddings, or make hospital visits, or chat on the phone, or have people in our homes during the holidays. So they’re not alone.

Some of them are instructional and educational, like. We teach parents how to be effective advocates for their Lgbtq students and how to make

you know, progress in helping the schools that their kids attend be safer and more inclusive. And then you know, some reach out and and do things for other non profits. We have the mama bears giving circle. We’ve given

more than $250,000 to other nonprofits in the last couple of years, we, we award grants to other nonprofits. These grants are specifically for programs that serve the community over a period of time. So

it’s really grown into more than I can imagine. But really, it’s because of the passion these moms have.

Meagan- Yeah,

wow, I have. I have quite a few things. I want to kind of

go back to that you’ve mentioned here.

You know my primary goal, one of them, anyway. And starting this podcast is to normalize that our faith journeys are unique and individual.

And it’s it’s supposed to be that way and to normalize that. My

my journey, my children’s journey is going to be different, and even from my own parents. Journey. I forgot to ask you if you know you were raised in this faith, if your parents, your grandparents, and so on.

But you know. I think that’s part that helps with the

affirming peace right whether or not you agree really is irrelevant, especially as our kids become of age, they still get to have their

journeys, they still get to have their

path in life.

I want to go back to something you said about the Sermon on the Mount, and I think your conclusion is absolutely reasonable that

Christ left it as

look you can discern for yourselves. Right? I think in many ways

I’m going to use the word, the church, the the phrase, the church. because I don’t think this is unique to a single conservative faith, but in many ways

the Church can infantilize their parishioners, their members, their.

However you you refer to them. Your congregation

you know, as parents, we teach our children. The plan is never to to manage or micromanage

till till we are no longer here, or or maybe they are no longer here. Right? That’s not the plan. That’s not the goal.

And so for me, this is

I love how you you kind of focus on that.

A good tree bears good fruit. That tree is going to produce

bad fruit, and and I realize bad is it’s a very simple word, right bad can mean something that it’s harmful. It can mean something that

isn’t good for you. But maybe it’s okay for somebody else. That’s the personal part of this journey right?

But at the at the center, at the crux. All of this is.

we have free will.

That’s where all of the personal development happens right? I just I just love that connection, that that that concept to you

you talked about. So your son came out in 2,006.

Wow! A lot has happened between then. Yeah.

And so you mentioned how many of your goals, and starting the the real mama bears and connection and community, and and a safe place to come and process everything that was going on. Of course you had your goals

for those that join, and and I can tell you’re not one that you would absolutely not force that on anybody.

But before real mama bears right like you were navigating this within your family unit, both

your your own family, and then your extended family in your faith family, I guess we could call it your faith congregation. You know, I’m kind of curious to know, like.

what role did your ability or the the option?

And I and this is, gonna be your experience right? Someone else’s might be different. But

what role did that navigating this, this journey with your son within your communities, your your family and your faith play in

the coming about of real mama bears.

Liz- Yeah. yeah. Those years before I started, real mama bears there was a lot a lot I went through and experienced.

first, I will say. One of the things that was really good is my husband, and I have always pretty much been

at the same place in our journeys. We kind of went through this journey together, and it really wasn’t hard for us. We didn’t like one person didn’t jump way ahead, and one person stay behind. We did move at a pretty much the same pace. So that was very that helped.

because I know that’s not the case in in every family.

I would just say to those who you know, maybe families that are going through this.

if you’re married, you know, give each other room to go through your own journey.

as long as everybody is prioritizing the well being

of the child.  and you know, be careful.

Maybe you don’t put the burden of this journey on your child, our our kids, when they come out to us. They’ve already got a lot to carry. Listen. no matter what they say, they’re worried about how we’re going to react. They’re worried

what we’re gonna fill all of us, no matter what age we are. We want our parents to accept us and approve of who we are at our core.

we need that. And so we really, no matter where we are on this journey. We need to be able to demonstrate that to our kids.

And if there’s difficult things we’re going through difficult feelings we’re having, we need to be able to process those away from our kid. Maybe that’s with a group. Maybe that’s with a friend. Maybe that’s with a counselor. But people who are safe and and not going to really try to. You know, convince us one way or the other. But just let us process this.

I know I’m getting a little off course, but that’s really important. I agree with you. 1,000. It is not our children’s responsibility

Meagan- to carry the weight of whatever your journey is, your struggles are because of just who they are. Right. That’s why I feel so strongly about getting support as well like you mentioned. That’s why I’m a life coach. That’s you know.

You need to go and process your own work. so that then in return, you can go back and be there for

Liz- your child, your family. Yeah. And don’t put it off either. Our kids need us to be as whole and healthy as we can be as quickly as we can be, because they need us to be. You know the parent they’re dealing with a lot of stuff, you know, depending on what age they are. But but really

I mean, this is especially vital for minors who don’t have the experience in life, or or the emotional bandwidth to to cope with.

you know, a bunch of extra stuff as they’re discovering who they are. So, anyway, my husband and I were on. Oh, I’m sorry. Go ahead! No, it’s fine, I just said, or don’t have a fully developed brain just yet. Exactly. They don’t. That comes later. Then most of us really realize sometimes.

but anyway, my husband and I were basically on the same page. So that was really helpful. And then

what we decided pretty early on is We realized that the church we were in was not really a good place for us to be going on this journey. We were making people uncomfortable.

With the questions we had and the things we were discovering.

and it was making us uncomfortable because it was making those people uncomfortable. So

you know, we’ve decided, okay, we need to step away. So I stepped away from all ministry work I was doing. We stepped away from the church and

you know, just decided to kinda try to figure some of this stuff out on our own away from

this particular belief system. We really wanted to challenge ourselves to look at things and as as unbiased as possible.

Yeah, because, you know, the tendency is to grab on to information that reinforces what you already believe.

And so we want it to avoid that. We really wanted to to make sure. as loving parents that we were really trying to find the right answer, you know, to our best of ability.

Meagan- If you’re looking for confirmation bias, you’re gonna find it. So that was very. I honor that

choice, that pivot we could say in your journey.

Liz- Yeah. So you know, like I said it. It wasn’t an instant thing. But over time we became a hundred percent affirming. And

you know at first you’re almost afraid to say that out loud, because you know that people that you’re friends with, you know, family members.

I mean, you know, you’re gonna lose relationships. But I remember one time I read a blog post it was a pastor, and he had come out as affirming. And he had said, You know, I know I’m gonna lose, you know, relationships because of this, and I’m gonna lose support.

But he said, You know, I’ve come to the conclusion.

that if I am affirming and I’m not being open about that. then I’m complicit and the harm and the damage that non-affirming theology is doing

to Lgbtq people. And that was very convicing for me.

And so I just decided, I mean. really, that just hit me so suddenly. It was like a sudden decision. I decided, I’m not going to hold back on this anymore.

And so I started being open about my position. And I did. I lost a lot of relationships

and more common, I think some. Yeah, very, very good friends, some very close family relationships.

you know. Nobody said. I don’t want anything to do with you. But what happens typically is people just began to distant themselves stop communicating. Stop inviting you stop including you.

But the good news is on the other side.

There’s people ready to embrace you. There’s new relationships. It doesn’t mean that.

you know it’s always sad that you lost these relationships that you had, and that you valued, and that were a part of your life and a part of your family’s life and a part of your kid’s life.

But

Meagan- it doesn’t mean you’re gonna be alone. It is. It is hard. Yeah, I appreciate you acknowledging that.

It does happen.

Liz- Yeah, it does. And so you know, I went through that and walking. I you know I don’t.

I don’t know. I’m one of these people, Megan. I always say, once you see something you can’t unsee it. And so once I saw someone say, you know, if you’re hiding this, if if you’re being quiet about it just because you wanna protect your own

sell from criticism, our conflict, our rejection. Then you’re complicit

and You know the harm that this theology is doing. Once I saw that somebody said that I couldn’t. I couldn’t unsee it. I couldn’t unhear it. I couldn’t unknow it.

and I want to get up every day and be able to look at myself in the mirror and I also like

probably any loving parent I want to be involved in creating a world

is safe for my children to navigate and live in and thrive in.

and I don’t want to contribute to anything. Would help create a world that is harmful and unsafe for my gay son to live in.

I couldn’t be more proud of him. We always joke and say, You know, our younger son is straight and cisgender, we always say, but you know he’s a good guy, and we keep him, anyway. you know, going absolutely going back to your

Meagan- your analogy of the the tree. Right? II mean.

it’s it’s so blatantly obvious. If you

see a tree that has bad fruit, no one’s gonna go. Say, well, I’m just gonna eat it. Anyway, I’m just

it’s it’s fine. That’s you know what I mean. It just

it makes reasons stare. It’s just it just doesn’t even make sense. And so

yeah, that’s and it’s also you’re not being honest with yourself, right? And if you continue to eat that fruit

in a in a very, if if we’re talking totally physically, you’re gonna get sick. And so very much in a mentally spiritually, emotionally.

you know, kind of making this analogy. You’re gonna you’re gonna get sick. You’re gonna get emotionally. And or you know, you’re gonna struggle a lot.

Liz- If you yeah. And you know, non-affirming theology damages people in every way you can think of, I mean, not just mentally and emotionally. It damages people spiritually.

It also damages people. Physically. I know many Lgbtq people who spent many years trying to change who they are, or

live a life of celibacy because of who of their sexual orientation.

or try to live as the gender they were assigned at birth, even though they knew they were

a different gender. And it’s not uncommon for these people to experience a lot of physical ailments, too. I mean. I know many people who told me they went to the emergency room. They thought they were having a heart attack.

Turns out it was, you know, a panic attack which was connected to stress and anxiety, because when you live with that constant burden, that who you are at your core, and you can’t do anything to change that

that creates a tremendous burden of stress and anxiety for you to carry day in and day out. So it is. It’s terribly damaging in every way, and also, too unfortunately, including my 2 sons, a lot of people. Not affirming theology is damaging a lot of people spiritually, because it’s driving them away from the faith.

There’s there’s so many triggers. Because of the way so many faith traditions have treated Lgbtq plus people that a lot of people just can’t have anything to do with it anymore. It’s just not healthy for them. It’s just not good for them. It’s not even okay, really, for them to go to an affirming

you know. faith community, it’s just become so triggering for them. They just have to remove themselves from that tradition completely. And

I, personally. I hate that because I feel like they’ve been robbed of something that might could have enriched their life, but I totally support their

You know authority over their own life. and for them to know what’s best for them, because the God I believe in. I don’t think he’s wrapped up in a bunch of beliefs that people have. What I think he cares about is how people are living and loving.

and if people are, you know, living you know, and and being kind and generous, and thoughtful and and honest, and and you know, have integrity and and not.

and doing more, and doing more good than they are doing harm. and and really trying to love other people will.

I think that’s what God cares about. I mean.

I don’t worry that my kids are gonna go to hell. I don’t.

I don’t follow a God who would do that to someone

who is really reacting to a tradition that they’ve just seen do harm.

Meagan- I either we believe the first 2 great commandments, or or we don’t right. I truly believe, if we lead with love

like sincere. unconditional love. it’s it’s hard to go wrong.

I totally hear you, and I totally.

I agree. Love is

what is paramount here.

Liz- I think so. And I mean, I really think that was even the message of Jesus for those who care about what Jesus said, now we’ll say this, yeah. Some people listening to this might not give a hoot what the Bible says. They might not give a hoot what Jesus said, but going back to the good fruit, bad fruit, theology.

I want those people to think about it this way.

Would a good doctor eat prescribing medicine or treatment

that produced bad results in their patients. No.

that’s fair, that’s a no brainer. So, however, you look at it, whether you look at it as something you would prescribe to someone, or the way to live, or a belief to live into.

If it’s good for you. then that’s what should be pursued. If it’s bad for you, then you should leave it behind. And II especially think parents

should really consider this because if you have a minor child, that is Lgbtq, and has come out to you.

You have a lot of power and influence over that child. Hmm!

And what you don’t want to do is lead that child down a path that is going to be harmful to them, mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually.

And so really do your homework get informed.

It’s not hard to find out. Listen to stories of people who are sincerely you know, telling the truth about their own experiences.

Non-affirming theology produces bad fruit in the in the people that embrace it

overwhelmingly, I mean, yes, you can always find an exception here or there, but like 99% of people who embrace non-affirming theology experience bad results.

And we don’t want to do that to our kids. We don’t want to do it to anyone.

Meagan- So I want to kind of expand on that kind of shift gears a little bit. When you were talking about

in the beginning you could tell some of the things that you were offering in your congregation. People were uncomfortable, and then that you were then uncomfortable.

And you just could see that we could say it wasn’t really a safe space. We hear that a lot talking about safe spaces, right?

And while I think those are important, I’m learning that I’ve learned this from a couple of guests that I’ve had recently.

it’s often not realistic. And so I’ve kind of shifted to talking about brave spaces.

and you know everybody’s situation is going to be different. These are just.

This is just a discussion, right? This is not me telling people what to do. They have to manage their own nervous system, they have to manage their own mental

and emotional and spiritual health and I know that you would feel the same in that respect, right?

But when you think about contrasting safe spaces versus moving toward

brave spaces, what comes to mind? I’ve talked about it in some previous episode. So before I offer anything, I would love to know what your thoughts are on that. Well, it’s funny that you brought that up because

Liz- sometimes. This subject does come up in the private Facebook group that we have for moms of Lgbtq kids. And

I do not like to describe our the mama bear community as a safe space, because

I do find people generally think of a safe space as someone, as some place where they would not be uncomfortable.

and I’m a firm believer. That being being uncomfortable is not always bad, because growth requires

us a lot of times to get uncomfortable growth. Sometimes it’s messy, sometimes it hurts, sometimes it’s hard. My word of the year last year was discomfortable. I really focused on that. I hear you. So I did discover the term brave spaces several years ago. I don’t know who exactly coined that initially.

but that’s what I like to call the mama bear community.

Now, what I will say about the mama bear community is, it is rooted in the spirit of kindness. So we’re not out to make you uncomfortable. We’re not out to

embarrass you, or or or, you know, hurt you. We are

out to help you make progress and to learn and grow to be the best parent you can

for your Lgbtq kids. So sometimes that means we may gently nudge you or challenge you. You might get corrected. You may be told that there’s a better way

to do something for the sake of your family and yourself.

so yeah, I like the term brave space, because I think it

the way I understand a brave space is, it is some place where you can

trust the people that are there to have your best interest.

Meagan- But it’s also a place where people are going to challenge you to keep learning and growing into the best version of yourself. I like that.

And you know that that makes sense to me. Everything that I’ve seen and experienced.

both from you and from from Sarah, who created Freemom hugs.

You probably kind of get grouped together. I don’t need to do that, but your your mission missions are very, very similar, and I love that. She’s well. She’s the loving, component, right? She’s the we’re here for. I don’t know if I’m making any sense you have.

Liz- You have individual missions, but yet they’re connected and they support. Yeah, you know, I don’t partner with a lot of people. But I partner with Sarah and with free mom hugs all the time we are on the same page. Our missions are very similar.

Sarah joined. My mama bears group very early on within the first few months of us. Creating it that following spring in 2,015, we had one of the first mama bears in person

gatherings, and Sarah came to that.and we just hit it off. We’ve been good friends. We’ve done a lot of work.

My mama bears a community supported her and cheered her on when she decided to start the free mom hugs movement and do the first free mom hugs tour.

We’re very integrated. We’re our organizations are independent of one another. But, you know, we work together. We people do get us confused all the time, not because we look alike, but sometimes, you know, people say, Oh, you started free, mom hugs, or they’ll say to Sarah, Oh, you got the mama bears going. People get us confused. But we’re okay with that, because, there’s nothing that free mom hugs does that I wouldn’t do. And

and I believe it’s vice versa for Sarah.

Meagan- Yeah, yeah, I confused you both. In in the beginning. I went to meet you both in in Frisco last year. I

I thought

Sarah was you at first. So that’s funny. That happens a lot.

I appreciate your insight so much

that that is fantastic. I just one last question I ask all my guests. You know the name of my podcast is beyond the shadow of doubt.

Traditionally, doubt is seen as a negative thing in

faith communities. Right? There, it’s seen as

shameful. There’s a stigma attached to it. And so

I’m kind of started. This movement to move past that doubt is actually it doesn’t have to be in this shadow of negativity. So my question is, what does it mean to you to live beyond the shadow of doubt?

Liz- Yeah.

you know one thing we kind of skipped over there, Megan is. When we were going through that process before I started real mama bears. I went through a lot of deconstruction, of my beliefs

and I had a lot of doubts during those years. There were times I was afraid I was gonna lose my faith, and II really didn’t want to do that, because my faith does enrich my life.

It is a significant part of my life. And So one day I sat down and I’m kind of a logical thinker like this, and I wanted to

try to think if there was anything I could believe with certainty, because, you know, that’s one thing. That kind of

I don’t know was an important part of the faith that I left is everybody was so certain about everything that they believed, and it was important for us to be certain about what we believed.

when I was in the Southern Baptist Church, I mean. if you were a mature

considered, a mature person of faith, then you were certain about your beliefs. But as I went through this deconstruction. I realized I wasn’t certain about hardly anything anymore that I believed.

But I sat down one day and I said, Okay, what is it that I can be certain about that. I believe that might help me hang on to my faith.

And I came up with 3 things. I could believe that God is good

because I can’t follow a God that I don’t believe is good, so I believe with certainty that the God that I follow and believe in is good.

I also believe that God loves everyone. everyone and I also believe with certainty that God wants us to love each other.

So. As I went through these years of deconstructing. These were 3 things that I hung on to. God is good. God loves everyone, and God wants us to love each other, and those became my 3 pillars of faith.

I questioned everything else, Megan, and many things that I used to believe. I no longer believe, or I believe differently about those things now.

But I believe these 3 things. And now that I’m on the other side of deconstruction.

Meagan- okay.

Liz- and reconstructed my faith, and and no longer feel like I’m having to tear everything apart and look at it so closely. You know what? That’s still the only 3 things that I believe with certainty. God is good. God loves all of us, and He wants us to love each other, and that’s enough for me. And so that’s what I consider living beyond the shadow of doubt. Those are 3 things that I don’t doubt

that I feel good about, secure, about certain about. It’s enough for me

Meagan- that’s so powerful. Liz. that is so powerful.

the gospel almost in a nutshell. Really.

I know this conversation, this this wisdom, this insight you’re sharing, is going to brings so much comfort

and peace. too many parent hearts and and kid hearts, too.

The kids. I see my space here as as a bridge in all of my work. Not just this, podcast

but in my work, with both the parents and the and the kids depending on each situation is unique and different.  there is a place we can all meet

in the middle and find love and find peace.

So beautiful. I am so grateful to have this conversation with you today, and so happy that it’s recorded

for all posterity. I know that sounds a little, Corny, but I just this has been wonderful to shift a little bit. I always end with just looking for one word, 2 word answers to some fun questions for my listeners to get to know a little bit more about you, Liz, so tell us what your favorite book is.

Liz- Oh, wow! I read a lot of books, but I’ll just tell you a book that really had a big impact on May

last year, and it’s called a little life.

Meagan- Okay. I will look that up. I love all these book recommendations. Are you an introvert or an extrovert?

Liz- Definitely an extrovert? Yeah, I get my energy from being with people. I’m very energized. When II get around people. It’s a great way of explaining it.

And who is your favorite favorite artist? Whoa! Well, I’m gonna say, my favorite musical artist is Kelly Clarkson.

Meagan- I love Kelly, too. I’ve seen her the most in concert with my best friend. And are you a 9 owl or a lark

Liz- night. Ow, definitely. and it gets the best of me, because, you know, we still have to get up early in the morning.

Meagan- And do you have a celebrity crush.

Liz-  I don’t know

Taylor Swift, or maybe Brandi Carlyle. I love her man. She is one of the kindest people ever both of those.

I’m really enthralled with.

I like their story. I like, from what I can tell the kind of people they are, and I feel like. They both embody a lot of kindness. I agree.

Meagan- and authenticity. That’s a core value for me. Yes, authentic.

And do you do still, or carbonated butter or diet. Are you a diet? Soda fan?

Liz- Well, I drink a lot of still water, and I have a coke 0 every morning instead of coffee.

Meagan- That’s fun. I like that finally, the furthest place you’ve traveled.

Liz- I think. Italy. Italy still on my bucket list. But I’ll go one day.

Liz- I will go.

Meagan- Well, Liz. if folks that are listening wanted to connect with you or reach out to you with questions, what would be the best way for them to do that.

Liz- Well, if you go to the real Mama bears website, which is real, mama bears.org, and I always like to remind people that we spell mama in my organization, MAMA.

So it’s real. Mama bears.org. If you go there, there’s a you know you can. There’s a little tab where you can click on to contact us. And that sends an email

and more than likely I will be the person to answer those emails. So you can connect with me that way. It also has our websites on there, our Facebook page, our Instagram, our tick tock.

twitter, which I guess is now known as X, or ex, formerly known as Twitter. However, they say that now we have all our websites, all our social media sites on there.

and I’ll throw this out there. If you want to send an email directly, you can send it to Mama Bears rock@gmail.com

Meagan- mama bears rock all one word at gmail.com. Okay, correct.

Liz- So we’d love to hear from you. I am always excited to connect with more and more families with LGBT. Q. Plus members, because I believe that as the family goes, so goes the world, so the more families would connect with help them become whole, heartedly affirming.

Help them celebrate their own LGBT. Q. Plus loved ones. The more change we’re going to see in the world. the more we’re going to create a world. That is kinder and safer and more inclusive for our Lgbtq loved ones to live and thrive without fear or hesit hesitation. I don’t want people to be afraid to be themselves.

Meagan- That is just so poetic. You said that so well, that is the perfect note to to wrap this up that is so beautiful. Thank you so much, Liz. Again, it has been an honor and just so much fun to get to chat with you today, so appreciate it.

Well, thanks, I appreciate it, too.