Episode 110: Don’t walk away from the dissonance, with Iese Purcell Wilson

MEAGAN-Hey everybody. Welcome to our episode today on the Beyond The Shadow Of Doubt Podcast. I just I know I say this at the beginning of every episode pretty much, but I am just ecstatic for you to meet ES A today. I had the privilege of getting to hear a essays presentation in September when you presented at the Gather conference and you are a musician in, in your background.

And we, we’re going to learn more about all of that, but I was just floored by what you taught us and your analogies. And so thank you. Thank you so much for coming and sharing this time with me and with our guests today.

IESE- Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to have this conversation.

Oh, my goodness. And I love just before we hit the record button, you shared how you love conversations and you’re OK with hard questions. And I am too. I totally vibe with that. I think that’s where the growth comes. Absolutely. So we are just gonna dive right in. Please just start by sharing with our listeners all about you.

I wish you could see what I can see. You’ve got this way, cool background going on. I know you’re from Hawaii but you’re not there physically right now, but it sure looks like Hawaii behind you. Anyway, share your background with us, your, your, your origin story. Anything you feel comfortable?

Thank you so much for, for asking about the the story. Should I take like 5, 10 minutes?

I don’t, I don’t want to go too deep if you don’t want me to go too deep, whatever you wanna share, just go for it.

Well, thank you, Megan. I would say so the name, let’s start off with the name. So my name is, yes, spelled Iese. It is a Samoan name for Jessie. And I am Samoan Hawaiian, Filipino and a little bit of English. So that’s my middle and last name is Purcell and Wilson. And you, you mentioned that my, my home is in Hawaii, but fun fact is I actually grew up in orange and, and San Ana California and that’s that’s no, they, they’re both, they’re that, that’s a really big part of the story for me is

I grew up in a place where I didn’t quite fit into like my growing up in like Santa Anna Garden Grove area, like my elementary school was half Vietnamese and half Mexican. And so when you’re the and, and so my brother and I made that like the 1% other of that demographic. And so, so right off the bat, I, I’ve always felt different. I, I should, I should open up that that I, that I identify as being gay.

He him pronouns and I, and, but at that time, I, I could, could just tell that I was different, not just, but I could, obviously don’t have a concept of, of orientation yet at that time. But I, but a big part of that was I’m sorry, not just not concept of orientation at the time, but also I was different because of my ethnicity and being mixed. So fast forward over to middle school, I get into, that’s I live through proposition eight at middle school.

And that’s, and so that’s what II I learned about what, what gay is what and so to, to be a closeted gay person of color in in orange California or San Anna area was crazy because I could, because I have chosen to be more religious. I, I tried to bring my family back to church and we were coming back to church and, but then I see the, I can see the, the LGBT Q community protesting in front of the temples.

And then I remember hearing the church leaders talking about asking people to wave signs for, I believe it was yes on eight. And and so like it was, it was like, my community was outwardly expressing my inward struggle. It’s kind of poetic. So, so like, that’s why, like I grew up in California, but California never really felt like home to me.

It wasn’t until after I served a mission and which I served in the New Zealand Auckland mission. So speaking, got to learn my, my native culture, my native tongue. Yeah, that was really cool. And it wasn’t until after that, that I felt prompted to go to Hawaii to learn more about my Hawaiian side. I learned about my Samoan side and I moved in with my grandparents to learn about my Hawaiian side and ended up going to BYU Hawaii over there and do.

And that’s normally what, what, what gets me invited on to these wonderful podcasts is I ended up getting involved with a lot of LGBT Q plus advocacy out there, which is when I came out at the age of 25 I’m now 30.

My goodness.

Yeah. So, wow. So while while being there, I comforted about 200. this is an estimation. about 200 LGBT Q individuals both open and mostly closeted from the 60 plus countries that attend that university and just cried with them. And then so I worked with the, the byh presidents presidency over there. and then even worked with church, church leaders to get our first LGBT Q topic, fireside in the State Center for the first time in school history. So, it was, it was a long first. Yeah.

How about, how long ago was that, that fire?

That was, that was right as we were emerging out of COVID and when we were able to start getting back into the chapels again. So, it’s like, was it 2020 20? Yeah, it was probably 2020 2021. 1 of those two.

I can’t remember the pretty, pretty recent past.

Yeah. Yeah. And so, and, and that’s what it is because I did that, that I got interviewed by Papa Osler and and Ben and Charlie on their podcast. So, so, yeah, so that’s what got me started all this and then, and yes, I, I got my, my my b a Bachelors of arts in general music. And I am a conductor. I’m here at Arizona State knocking out my last semester in my master’s in conducting where I’m studying under my queer mentor.

Yeah. II, I have a non-binary mentor named Doctor Jace Kohola Selan. And I, and we came here as an all queer cohort. So me and my two cohort mates, all queer including a queer professor and we got to build a program of safety and inclusion here at a su that I’m really proud about. And I’m actually going to be doing a poster session about that with my friends at the American Coal R Association Conference in Pasadena in a month or two.

So, yeah, so I, I came out of 25 and after that was straight LGBTQ advocate advocacy ever since. So that’s, that’s just kind of like the, the overall timeline and I feel free to ask questions anywhere along that timeline.

I’m so happy for you that you were a, have been able to create this safe pocket for yourself. What a cool thing to, to have that cohort and be able to relate to one another and just be there for one another on many different levels, obviously. So you have a rich heritage. I love that and it’s clear from just how much you’re beaming that you, you love every part of it and that’s, that’s wonderful.

And I don’t, I’m not just talking about you, Samoan, you’re Hawaiian, you know, you’re, you were raised in California. You have a rich heritage as well in your identity as a queer individual. And I’m so grateful that you stepped up to, obviously, you felt some kind of call to be an advocate to be a safe space there. And you made a huge difference to those 200 individuals. I have zero doubt about that. Thank you. One thing that we didn’t quite touch on.

I know you said you served in L DS mi mission, this podcast I I interview folks from all different faith backgrounds because this is, you know, we all have faith journeys regardless of what conservative faith you might have been raised in or come from, or even if you’ve converted from one to another. Were you born into the L DS? Faith or was your family? Can you tell us a little bit about that part of your background?

Great question. I, my dad was raised in the church. His parents, my grandparents are immigrants from immigrants from Samoa. And the thing is my great grandpa. Oh Fun fact. This, I’ve never mentioned this before. I named after two of my great grandpas. Yes, Purcell and yes Wilson. So my full name is Yes, Purcell Wilson. And, and these were both, these men were some of the pioneer leaders of the church in Samoa.

And so my, my great grandpa, yer Purcell would actually travel around as the branch president throughout all of Samoa. And so that’s how, how deep my roots are there. And my mom who is Hai Filipino was raised in Hilo, Hawaii. It wasn’t until she came to California for college for nursing school that she met a guy and was baptized and then would later meet my dad at ironically, a church sponsored Luau I believe over in it was in Mich Die.

And so so like, and, and, and so and to be Polynesian, particularly on the Samoan side is it’s church is integrated into the culture just as much as Catholicism is integrated into, like, for example, Mexican culture or a lot of those Latin American cultures, it’s just, it’s hard to separate religion from the culture. That is it in American Samoa.

Their, their motto is mu mutua, which is God comes first. And so it, it really is an inseparable part of the culture. And so so we were my, my, my immediate family. I’m the oldest of three boys. and my parents, we made up the nuclear family. But half of my time the reason why I say I lived in Orange and San Anna, it was, was with my family, with all my about 15 other cousins and my grandparents from Samoa. We were all in the same house growing up together.

And and so they, so they were all, yeah, it was oh I love it and very, very typical. I, if there’s anybody in Pacific Island here, like that’s my upbringing too. So they were very active but my family was probably going the most inactive at that time. So it wasn’t until I felt the, the urge to for spirituality and community around middle school that we started, I started pushing my family back to church.

Gotcha. Yeah, I’ve only had one other guest that I can think of off the top of my head who is of the Polynesian culture. That’s Inoke Tonga I Yeah. Yes. And that was a great interview, highly recommend listening to Ino’s story. He’s volleyball coach and was actually on the Ellen show for what happened to him. So this is, this is great to, to see more representation within the Polynesian community and how it overlaps with the conservative faith community, L Ds and otherwise, and

with the queer community. So your roots in the L DS faith do run deep, You knew you mentioned earlier from a young age that you were just different. And you’ve also mentioned how, you know, the church was important to you to the extent you try to encourage, you got to a point where you were encouraging your family to come back and you live through prop eight. Wow, just so many, so many layers here. So share with me this, this process of deciding to open up to your family, your loved ones,

your friends at age 25 of how you feel inside of how you identify. I mean, 25 you know, the youthful brain they say is, you know, your prefrontal cortex pretty much developed by then. It’s not like someone could say, oh you’re young, you don’t know what you’re talking about, right? You had plenty of time to experience ES A and know yourself. Can you share with us what brought you to that point knowing how your faith of origin, how it’s, you know, what its teachings were.

Oh gosh. Yeah, I, I definitely was before the coming out at 25 you know, I, I gotta admit that like one of the things that’s very common for, for members of our faith that are queer is that we, we try to do the mission to try to pray away the gay, try to show God. And as, as the award that we’re expecting, you do take this away because this is supposed to be a phase.

And so so, so hyper religiosity is a huge part of my, my story. And so like when you think when, when you know that that’s my background, you know, that, that it would, it had to take a massive smack upside the head to, to, to, to flip out of that because I was pretty content with dying a closeted man. So what, what ha what happened was I was actually I, I attended my first semester byuh and I was on summer break and I was just doing my evening prayers.

I, I’m now living in Hilo, Hawaii with my grandparents who aren’t members of the church. And and I was just doing nightly prayers and I get this I don’t get, I, I will be clear, I do not get the, the revelations of words where somebody said, like I hear God speaking to me and that does not happen for me, but this was one of the rare moments in my entire life that that’s happened and, and it was just a normal night and it was just the prompting was yes, it’s time to come out to your family and you

need to take care of your LGBT Q brothers and sisters at BYU Hawaii. And, and so II I, that was like, I, I, I’m like mid prayer and I cut off the prayer and I’m just like, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa This is, th this goes against everything that I have been working on. And then what, how I perceived the writings of, of scripture and the, the speaking of church leaders, this goes against like II, I fought back to it and then I grabbed what’s known as a patriarchal blessing, which is a blessing that

is given to us as like things that we can accomplish in this life if we live righteously, that was given that. And so it’s written down on the paper. So I grab this blessing to try to disprove God, like get back to my brain. Let me show you what this is what you told me. And there’s a section about about how my mission was supposed to. It’s gonna help so many people, I’m gonna use my, I’m gonna be blessed with the talents of, of speaking and and, and love and kindness of care.

But if you knew me on my mission, I was that mission leader that nobody wanted because I was so self righteous because I was trying to like, get the Guinness to go away. So I was, I was so overzealous and unlikable. So like, that didn’t come true. But then as I’m, as I’m mid prayer with God and with my with my patri blessing reading through it, like the veil was lifted it off of it.

I’m like, oh, this applies to my mission here at BYUH where I’m supposed to take care. Like, and, and, and sure enough, that’s exactly what happened. So before I, before I jump too far ahead into the, the ministry at BYU, what is like that is that is the only thing that could have ever got me to come out was God told me in prayer that it was OK. And like, you know, II, I, and I was, I attended an issue of religion class and I, and, and I remember there, the, the topic was polygamy and, and like I

remember this, this instructor saying the rules of we can say make one really simple rule for polygamy. And that is, it is OK when God says it’s OK and it’s not OK when God says it’s not OK. And because it changes throughout the, the timeline of God’s talk God talking with mankind. And so anyway, going back to this conversation, like, II, I had to, I had that realization like, OK, it’s OK when God says it’s ok and it’s ok when God says it’s not ok.

This time, I’ve, I, I’m, I’m feeling personally prompted to do this. And so if, if so, like go and do the things, the Lord commands. And so I planned out that I would come out to my parents when I visited him in California and that’s where I came out to my family. I came out to my dad first in the car ride home hoping that, that, that he could gather the family and he tried to fix me a little bit, but it wasn’t too, too hard.

I, I, that was also when, I told him probably a year prior that I was meeting a therapist for three years in secret that was being funded by my bishop. And, and he’s like, that is when you came out to me about seeing a therapist, like, oh, my son might be gay. But so that was the first time he ever had the information. And so he told me that in the car.

But, but he tried to fix me by saying, oh, go talk to your Uncle Robert, go talk to the, he’s like you and I’m just like dad, I don’t, I don’t, don’t need to be fixed. And I, and he asked like, have you thought about this? I’m like, I’ve thought about this. And, and so I, I come out to my parents, my brothers and and, and they were, they were very receptive.

They, they, they all chose to love me. And II, I failed to mention this part. I was because of being closeted gay. And I don’t know if you’ve seen this and people in your practice, I don’t know if there is a common thing is I, I didn’t like myself. So I took out my pain on my siblings growing up. I would, I would categorize myself as an emotional abuser to my siblings as the oldest brother of three.

And so when I came out, I got to say like, hey, I hope like this, I it doesn’t condone like it doesn’t say that it was OK, what I did, but I hope you can now understand where that was coming from. That I was taking out the part that I hated on me out on you. And that day began the beginning of a new relationship between me and my brothers. and and my parents have accepted me and I, I’ll just close with this.

My mom and I were walking their dogs the next day and she is a personal trainer and she’s like she told me before walking the dog, she’s like, I just broke down crying after I finished training my client. I’m like, I know it’s hard, it’s hard to have a g she’s like, no, it’s not that I’m like, then what could it possibly be about? And she’s like, well, you don’t know what it’s like to be a mother.

that, was, was I so busy that, like, I couldn’t see that my son was struggling and that he couldn’t come and approach me. Like that’s the, that, that’s my initial reaction. And then the other thing is there’s, life is already hard and now it’s gonna be so much harder for you because of who you naturally are and there’s nothing I can do about that.

And so like that, that changed my life. My mom, like that’s an a plus response by a mother and, and that I, I’m very grateful for her and she’s been stalwart and supporting me ever since. And, and my dad has been not as vocal, that’s not been his personality, but he’s been very loving and caring towards me. I had a, I have a wonderful boyfriend.

I have a wonderful boyfriend. So I’m shouting that to make sure that he heard that and and he visited our house and my dad made sure to tell him you can, you can always come here if you, you’re always welcome at this house. So my so to indicate my dad may not say much, but that’s where he is. So that’s where I’m at now in 2024.

Wow, I am so happy for you and your happiness is so obvious you’re beaming. I love your tribute to your parents. And if there’s any parents listening right now, I want to point out something that you said, yes, you didn’t say that your parents were perfect handling it as you grew up. They didn’t even know you, you mentioned your dad might have started to suspect at one point, but that wasn’t until you were a little bit later, but that isn’t what you’re focused on.

You said a plus response by my mom, like it changed my life and you meant that you’re not just making that up. And you’ve also mentioned how, how appreciative you are of your dad’s response that he’s loving and he’s open and he said you’re always welcome in our home. And if there’s parents listening, I hope that you can be gentle with yourselves and, and really more than anything, just keep those lines of communication open, right?

This isn’t the first time. You know, either you a queer kiddo or a parent has expressed parents often will feel like what did I miss out on? What, what I mean? What did I not see? They feel, feel like maybe they’ve failed in some way. And I think the important thing is to focus on the here and the now and like what is going well, you can, if you want to look to the past, use it as a maybe a mile milestone or a baseline of where maybe you were.

But look at how, you know, what is different now and how have things evolved or changed? Or you’ve grown or improved? And that was, that was just a beautiful tribute to your parents.

Maybe I’ll get them on here sometime and they’re very, they’re very humble people.

II I doubt they would. But, but you know, that’s why I have to, I have to shout, shout them out because like, like, you know, like, and they’re still trying, like, I just had a breakthrough with my mom again for another level is we’re playing this, this card game called, we’re not really strangers. And like, and then one of the, she pulled this ca I pulled this card that, the question was like, what, what needs to be done for us to feel closer together?

And like, that’s a hard question that she had to answer. And she was like, I feel like I need to ask more about your life about like the gay part of your life. I’ve just kind of like, like, OK, I, I’m just not gonna talk about it but like, I feel now that we played this game and that we’ve been having conversations like I should be asking about how is dating going, how is your heart and instead of just not talking about that.

And so like, that’s been almost five years since I first came out and, and so there’s another level and, and, and, and, and let me also give parents if, since, if we’re talking to them, something that I tell myself and I try to tell other LGBT Q people to consider is nobody can be as homophobic as I was to myself. And that, and so I knew I was different by around age 10, 9 or 10.

And so that coming out at age 15, so it’s taken me 15 years of self hate that I at least got to offer my parents maybe another 15 years or some something a long time to work through that because like they like, I was harsh on myself. II I think immediately we, we kind of expect them. Well, they should just love me like, well, hey, did you, did you love you for those 15 years?

And so and so they need to go on that journey too and, and so I think we, we could do better. and, and obviously there’s some unique situations for that harder situation than what I had. But if possible, maybe we can offer parents a little bit more grace.

Yeah. so wise and that was really AAA powerful poignant statement that nobody could be as homophobic to you as you already were to yourself. That’s, it’s a little sobering. And yeah, I think that’s why one thing I, I say often is lead with love. I, I truly don’t believe a person can go wrong if they are truly coming from a place of love and what they’re saying, what they’re doing.

Maybe that’s idealistic. I’m talking true, sincere, unconditional love, love without conditions. I wanted to circle back when you talked about the reason why you came out because God told you it was ok. You even said really, the only way that I came out is because God told me that it was ok. And, and yet you’ve known since you were nine or 10, that you were different.

One of the things I just, I aim to normalize through this podcast is our faith journeys, all look different. And so for yours, you know what God spoke to you, however, that type of communication works within es A right? You knew, you knew what God was telling you to do what the divine was directing you was your next steps. And then eventually you, you, you said you kind of put two and two together when it came to reading through your patriarchal blessing again and knew that the next

part of your, your calling, your mission was to be a resource, a safe place for all the queer BYU I students. So what, what would you share with those who are listening and it, and it’s could be parents, it could be the kids, right? Like your faith journey is unique to you and you’ve had questions come up, you have had things that maybe caused you to have some doubts, right? And I’m just here to normalize our faith journeys, including the questions, maybe even, especially because of

the questions and the doubts. They are beautiful. So, can you share how you have allowed that process? And, and I heard you in your younger years, you were, you know, kind of hyper, did you say hyper, spiritual, hyper something? But, but definitely there’s been an evolution because I don’t get that vibe from you at all. I mean, you just said, hey, boyfriend a minute ago. Yeah, share a little bit about that part of how you navigate your journey, your faith journey.

Oh gosh, where, where do you go from the here?

Whatever pops in your mind. No, no wrong direction here.

I right before we started this podcast, I said, yeah, ask the hard questions and, and I think it’s because for me, like with you, you just grow up with the hard questions. Like, all right, if I was, is gay being gay a sin is, oh, it’s not a sin. Like how does, how does then why would God make me allow me to be born gay if it doesn’t lead to a straight marriage?

Like is he setting me up for failure? Like all these hard questions? But like, you know, like they, they kind of get just chew on them and, and they just bake over years and, and you know, and they, and that’s kind of where I’m at is that sometimes questions, take some time to bake and, and and at least that, like, for me, like, I was not expecting to get an answer to come out at 25 it was just an evening prayer like that the other day.

And and so, like get getting comfortable with not like that, that helped me. Let’s go back to the idea of me being really self righteous on my mission. I acted like Javert in Les Miserables. I was very justice oriented. I thought I was better than everybody else. But the truth is we are, we are all, we, we’re all flawed like and justice has claim on all of us if we’ve ever made a single mistake. And, and so like, where am I going with this? I, I’ve learned that living in dissonance, which

is something I talked about at that gathered is, is a, is a concept that sometimes you need to lean into those harsh dissonances and they feel uncomfortable for a moment and you lean into them till there’s a resolution. It may not even resolve the way that you’re expecting it resolved to, to resolve. But gosh, give me, give me another question that I can, I can launch in a little bit further.

Well, no, that was, that was actually really perfect. Yeah, Javert from Les Mis is, is definitely very much that black and white type of thinker. There was one way and one way only and that’s, that’s a really interesting comparison. Let’s, let’s talk a little bit about this dissonance, this concept of dissonance because that was just this was the main focus of your presentation, what you shared at the Gather conference.

Let’s dive into that. You know, Yeah, sometimes you do need to lean, lean into that. I think all the time actually, we need to and you said until there’s a resolution and I had to thought maybe sometimes there’s not or you’re waiting, you, you use the analogy of cooking and baking, maybe it’s still in the oven and the resolution isn’t going to come for a while, right?

We just, I think as humans, we don’t tolerate that discomfort very well. I think there’s a movement to try to, to move in that direction of allowing dissonance, allowing or at least not ignoring it away from it.

I feel like we’re moving in. maybe it’s the millennials and Gen Z and and, and, and a lot of us but like, and the progressive Gen Xers, come on and the progressive Gen Xers. Yes, we, we, we have this idea like, I feel like maybe we’re finally starting to get a little bit of more of an idea of what faith is, which in our church is known as the first principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And that. And so like, it’s funny for for a religion that I love and still an active member of that we, we say our first principle is faith, but we always lead in with our, I knows, I know this. I know that I know. And I just taught, so I, I taught elders qum this past Sunday and I closed my, my lesson out with this is not an I know testimony. I’m gonna use different words and I, and I use them intentionally.

I trust that God loves me and I am striving to believe that there’s a wave that I can, that, that I fit in here to God’s plan of salvation. And this, this concept of sitting in that dissonance is what they perhaps this really, I’m closer to faith and acting on faith because I don’t have those answers. I feel like we, especially when we like the name of this podcast beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I don’t know how many times I’ve heard people just, just throw that out there and, and, and, and then just, and then just by rote say like, I know I know this, I know this. I know this, what else? There’s one more I know I need to list on there. Oh, I also know this but, but having dissonance and not and causes us to, I feel like, like what I was trying to say about this, this new generation I feel like we’re trying to accept this is where faith may actually be operating in this space.

And I have grown and to go to connect back to that idea of, of, of justice. And Javert is because I’m in that distance, the grace and mercy that I am able to offer to others and not judge them and allow them to be whoever they are and make the mistakes that they need to make has increased exponentially. I am a better disciple of Jesus Christ, I believe because I sit in that dissonance, possibly without a resolution in sight because that person that I may be

having a conflict with may have their own set of dissonances that they’re going through and I can offer grace for that. So it’s, it’s really, it’s messy and it’s wonderful.

I agree. And, and yes, I purposely picked the title of this podcast because that is a statement that’s been used multiple times over not just years, but we’re talking, you know, generations. And I purposely dropped the a in an attempt to really examine this shadow that has been cast on doubt and see doubt for what it really is.

It’s, it’s a good thing you’re talking about faith. The opposite of faith isn’t doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty. And the only person who has 100% certainty is the divine, right? And so I see faith and doubt as basically two sides of the same coin. They, you really can’t have one without the other.

Yeah. And if I can also add to that idea. And I mentioned this in the, in the podcast is when we have that faith and we have that doubt, we have dissonance. Another term for science folk. They may like the word friction and with that like friction is not inherently bad.

And the example I gave was when a car tire touches pavement and we’re trying to get the car moving forward, there must be friction to move the car forward. That is what we’re talking about here. Is it working in tandem with the goal of progression?

That’s really good. I really like that. Yeah. Now, I don’t know if you’re near your piano or if you can get there, I’ll take that expression as a no. So that’s ok. I will send folks to your presentation at gather, but can you just tell us what is it from a musical standpoint? That is, so why, why dissonance is actually even something desirable and you want it?

It’s helpful, it’s moving, it’s, you know, all of those things. Can you share a little bit more about that concept with us that that was just so encapsulated. So I, I just was enraptured by it.

Yeah. Thank you. So where do I start? where I started the presentation was, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a an interval in music that was actually outlawed by the Catholic church, back in ancient times, maybe not ancient times, but the medieval times. And, and it was known as a tritone, otherwise known as they named it the devil’s tone. And that, that one sounds like, do, do, do, do, do see how that has a distance that they would not allow that to, be written into their music, because

it sounded like the devil. But it wasn’t until much later that we realized that, that if I were to put that in another chord, it’s a chord that we play right before we sing Happy Birthday. And, and so I, now we have, now it serves a purpose and it’s even in all of our hymns. If anybody hears a musician, if you see a chord that says a seven on it, it guarantees that you have dissonance. If you have, the word suss written after the chord that means that there’s going to be dissonance.

So what is the point in that the of, of the, the point I was trying to make is that in music dissonance isn’t what makes the music ugly? It does a few different things. It is what progresses the music forward and it is what makes the music beautiful. If you try to listen to a music that has zero dissonance in it, it’s not good music, people don’t listen to it.

And so you know the hymns that don’t have it.

It’s, you, they’re just simple chords, one after another. You definitely know the ones that don’t have it. You’re right. Yeah.

There, I think there may be some of them may not be as strong as others, but, like, but just, just the way that music is written. They, they’re in there like it. Here’s the way you can, if you’re, if you, if there’s, if you’ve grown up in a hymn tradition, it’s almost always the last two chords you hear and it goes t do the, do you always, there’s always somewhere in this. If you don’t get that, then you don’t, you can’t tell that the song is over.

That’s so there’s conclusion, there’s, there’s some type of, you use the word kind of resolution.

Absolutely. So it’s, it’s a, it’s a complex topic. But I, but II, I try to help people understand that, that through this metaphor or analogy that like this, we need to not avoid, look at dissonance as the thing to avoid. This is like contention, contention is evil. This is wrong. Like no, this is what propels us for it and it is what creates the beauty.

So to broaden that and apply it to, to life and music, of course, is a big part of life. But if we were to take that then and apply it to the queer community when someone comes to you and shares, well, that’s you know, if they have, feel you’re safe, they feel you, you know, they feel comfortable sharing with you like you did with your parents. I identify as I felt this way since I was nine.

I’m, I’m gay. Right. You know, there could be some that might respond to someone sharing that. That can’t be, that’s, that’s not right. That’s not what I, we know to, you know, we’ve been taught, that’s not what we quote unquote, believe on and on. Versus, and that would maybe come from a place of resisting that that person is sharing something that doesn’t feel comfortable to you. It’s bringing up some maybe resistance, it’s bringing up the dissonance, it doesn’t match what

you’ve been taught, right? And so you’re, if you were to, you know, use those that, that concept of allowing that dissonance, you lean into that and you’re able to, to have that number seven chord that you called it, allow it in whatever your music sheet of life looks like, like leaning into that versus running from it or taking it out of your, your music sheet of life.

Yeah. If I can elaborate on that, is that the like, I like how you mentioned, like, you not running away from it, let me show you what that sounds like is when, when we like, for example, somebody comes up, you now feel dissonance and we’re like, I don’t want to feel this and I walk away this is what the, what it sounds like if we’re gonna run with that analogy to me that’s, here’s a scale for you and I’m gonna stop on tea instead of going all the way to do.

And I want you to feel how it kind of leaves you. So sounds like this do re mi fa so la t walk away like that is what that, that like that, that tea that, that leaves you in like a, a dissonant like feeling. And so like what I’m inviting people is like, yeah, it’s unfinished. And so like, so this concept of when somebody comes out and you feel that dissonance don’t walk away while you’re in tea, sit in it and allow it to be messy and navigate in the messy towards the resolution.

It may take a day may take years, it may but, but sit in it, sit in it and, and the process even e especially for example, like my mom sharing what, what she shared with me. That was my mom saying, son, I’m sitting in the messy with you now and that meant the world to me was, was her joining in on the dissonance instead of hiding behind the, the I knew and saying like, but the church teaches us

the da da da, da, da da da. And she instead of hiding behind I know language, she, she, it basically saying I’m here to sit in this, in this dissonance with you while it’s messy.

Yes. That is a perfect way to explain that. And I would add, it’s, it might, you might feel that dissonance when someone shares how they, they identify that I’m that I’m gay or that I’m bisexual or transgender. It could also be when a friend, family member or loved one shares, I need to take a break from church or I don’t feel like that’s where I can be right now or I don’t want to be or doesn’t feel safe or whatever it might be.

It could also be. I’ve met somebody and I care about them and they care about me and we’re just gonna see what happens. It could be a lot of different things. But I think when we just go with whatever that knee jerk reaction is and for those that were raised in a conservative faith, it’s all, it’s often one of maybe of this proverbial wall of resisting that that’s what they’re sharing or that can’t be true or disbelief or whatever to, to pause and, and think about, ok, do I want to leave

this on the tea note or do I want to try to venture toward finishing off the scale? Like, can I just pause here for a minute and entertain the idea that there’s more behind what they’re sharing?

And if I can also add a new idea is, I’m, I’m, I’m become a really big fan of Adam Grant who’s are you, you’re familiar with his work? And like, I can’t remember his, his, it’s like a three PS. But anyway, it was like it, anyway, what I’m trying to get to is the idea of I’m trying, I’m in, I’m in search of the truth. Like I’m still like, yeah, you can call me a member of the church, use Christ Latter Saints.

But another way you can define, oh, not define me, but call me is I’m a truth seeker. I’m trying, I’m in search of the truth and I’m, I’m not, I’m not looking for what makes me feel good. I’m in search of the truth even if it challenges me. And so like, I, I look forward to maybe this is the academic in me but like I look forward to things challenging what I believe because then like that, that’s, that’s like the idea I mentioned earlier. Then I have time to bake. I get to chew on it a little bit

more and just like, and just battle with it and, and like, I, I think I’m different from most people. I like that battle. I like, like trying to figure out and justify and argue in my head to try to figure it out. Like, and I think a lot of people shy away from that, like if you hear something that challenges you like chew on it and, and, and and because ultimately, I would hope we’re in the pursuance of what is, what is right. But that what makes us feel right? You know.

Yes, that that is. Yeah. And this and that to me is, is the crux of the beauty like I’m talking deep, just deep meaningful beauty. Like you get to decide that about your journey. You’re a truth seeker, you get to give yourself permission that, that that is who you are. And I think the more we can lean into what initially might make us feel uncomfortable or bring up that cognitive dissonance. I’ve learned personally and I invite others with whom I work to, to consider this, that ask

yourself when you, when is your response, are you making their story about yourself? Are you focused more on your own pain and or discomfort and completely missing theirs? I think there’s a really important questions that we can ask ourselves that we can be willing to come face to face with because underlying all of that is, that’s to me like the heart of the gospel. It’s, it’s love, it’s unconditional love, just see people for who they are.

Yeah. And the, the, the, the, the, the quote that comes to my mind is President Mons and former president of our church who passed away. He quoted Shakespeare saying they do not love that do not show their love. Hm. You know, and I, and I think, and now that now we have other things like the five love languages. Like, can we communicate love in the language that the person I love understands?

You know, I, I think a lot of us that grow up, you talk about conservative religions, we have chaos, talk about conservative cultural upbringing is like some, some true love is, is tough love. And, and, and so I think so many people of an earlier generation could default to that instead of a really good point.

That’s a really good point.

So, so they do not love that do not show their love. And I would invite people to consider to show love in the way that the in the language of love that that individual understands so true, so true.

I, I just glanced at the clock while we’ve been chatting and chatting one last question that I like to ask my guests share with us what it means to you to live beyond the shadow of doubt beyond this, I guess. con conception that we have of, of having doubt. What does it mean to you to live beyond that?

You know what? I, I’ll be honest, I still struggle to understand the meaning of this phrase. Like, where did it even come from? And could you could, you could, you, could you dive into a little bit more of what, what that means?

Like, I that’s actually a really valid point.

Yeah, because like what I, what does that? Because you said you removed the a, from it beyond the shadow of doubt is because like, if going back to that original word or the wording of it beyond a shadow of a doubt when I hear that, I’m like, I don’t know what that is and I’m ok with that.

Yeah. Yeah. Just, I can see from our conversation how you don’t fear doubts. You don’t fear having questions at all. I can see that maybe at one time in your life, you might not have acknowledged it as fear. Maybe it was an avoidance or not or, or perhaps even not even acknowledging them. Like in your world, we don’t have doubts that doesn’t exist.

I know XYZ, I know, you know you talked about how you closed your lesson on Sunday of I’m choosing these words on purpose, right? I trust, fill in the blank. I’m striving to believe, fill in the blank, right? To me that epitomizes living beyond this often negative shameful shadow that has been cast on having doubts and questions you are in my observation and in sharing with you and plus listening to your presentation, I mean, yeah, you’re embodying that you’re, you’re living that

I, I truly do feel that and you being a an example, a living example of what’s possible in, in that respect. So I think in, in your life, the way you choose to live and be and share and love. Yeah, you’re moving in a very positive, very good direction.

Thank you. It’s very generous.

Yeah, it’s, it’s true. So real quick, I throw out a line of questions. I’m looking for 1 to 2 word answers. This just let’s, let’s just get to know you. OK. Are you an introvert or an extrovert? Introvert? OK. Wow. OK. And do you have a favorite book or you can share more about being in you?

OK. Introvert has less to do with social skills and more to do with energy. And I think Simon Sini said this and the difference is like an introvert starts off their day with, with like five social coins. And if you spend them all at the end of the day, you feel depleted whereas an extrovert starts off as zero and with each conversation, you gain the coin and at the end of the day, they feel rich.

But the reason I think that’s important is because like an introvert could be good at communication skills. It doesn’t mean we’re always shy. It just means we’re trying to conserve energy.

True. I love that so, so much. Thank you. Oh, I love that. OK. Do you have a favorite book?

Oh book. Oh goodness.

Doesn’t have to be the most favorite.

The there’s a book that talks about building the Kingdom of Samoa of, of missionaries that went to Samoa. My grandpa is in that book. And so I remember seeing him in there. And that’s one of my favorite books.

Oh, lovely. Ok.

Do you have a favorite artist, favorite artist?

I would say composer. And if you’re in the choir world you’re gonna cringe. But his name is Martin Laden. His, his, his piece, his Lucan changed my life and is the reason why I’m in choral music.

Oh, I love that. Own it. Ok. Are you a night owl or a morning lark?

night owl? Absolutely. I go between bed, going to bed early is 11 o’clock late. Is like one and two.

Ok. do you do still, or carbonated water or are you a diet soda fan?

I am all the above, all the above you like hydration?

Ok. do you have a celebrity crush?

Celebrity crush? There’s a, I got into th BL series, which a boy Love series and this guy’s name is Sinto and he’s in the series called Sodas. And so, yes, my celebrity crush is in Thailand.

I love it. That is awesome. And then finally the furthest place you just looked at your boyfriend that’s, and then the furthest place that you’ve traveled.

Oh, my mission in New Zealand, Auckland, New Zealand.

I’ve actually been there to visit. My husband served there. Love it. Such a beautiful place. Yeah. Yes, it has been amazing. You are a light and inspiring and I love to hear how things are going and all the things that you’re doing? Thanks for taking some time out of your, your busy life and spending it here with me and our listeners.

It’s been so much fun. Thank you, Megan.