Episode 107: Jesus didn’t care about offending the Pharisees, with David of @_mindful_faith

In an episode of the ‘Beyond The Shadow Of Doubt’ podcast, the host welcomed a guest who had a significant impact on the host’s faith journey, operating an anonymous social media account called ‘Mindful Faith.’ The host discussed the shift in their faith after their youngest child came out as LGBTQ+. The guest, David, shared his personal journey, which included attending the wedding reception of Charlie Bird, prompting him to shed his anonymity. Despite initial concerns over disappointing followers, David’s reveal was mostly well-received, but led to his exclusion from his local church. Both David and the host discussed the distress caused by exclusionary policies in the church, endorsing faith based on trust in God and inclusivity, and encouraging doctrine evolution for increased inclusivity. They emphasized respecting people’s faith decisions without imposition, encouraging exploration of personal beliefs, and stepping into brave spaces for impactful changes.

David and Meagan Skidmore Coaching, LLC

Speaker 1

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Beyond The Shadow Of Doubt podcast. Thank you for joining us for today’s episode. I’m thrilled for you to get to know and meet my guest today. This is, this is a new one for me, a new experience to have a guest who has had an anonymous account on social media for a while now and who has recently decided that a little more transparency is, is in their journey.

I have followed mindful faith on Instagram from the beginning. I, I followed when you were, I think in the beginning you were called Thoughtful Faith. Yeah. Yeah. And i it has been an integral part of my faith journey. So many of the things that you have posted have, have really touched me and made me think and stretched and they resonated with me as I have taken a significant pivot in my own faith journey when 4.5 years ago going on five.

Now, actually, we, we learned that our, our youngest kiddo identifies as LGBT Q plus. So, I gravitate gravitated and continue to gravitate towards those that think in expansive ways. So for many reasons, we will address you as David today and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for coming on and being willing to, to share more about you and your story.

Speaker 2

I really appreciate the opportunity and one reason that I chose to let down some of the anonymity was to have more experiences like this. I I had the great, great, great honor of being invited by Charlie Bird to attend his wedding reception a few months ago. It was an incredible experience. The only downside for me was that I was going as this anonymous internet account, not like a flesh and blood person. And so I was there, I saw lots of people there in attendance who I have come to

know and love through my Instagram account, but because I still was conflicted about whether I wanted to put myself out there. I just had to kind of watch everybody visiting and with each other from a distance. And so I just, you know, being able to come here and talk with you is, is really great and that’s one of the reasons why I said, you know, I think I’ll just take the risk, you know, and and do it.

Speaker 1

So that means a lot, that means a lot. That is, that is fantastic. So you went, you attended without sharing your name or, or exactly who you were.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean kudos to Charlie like he, he sent me, he, he, he just messaged me on, on, on Instagram and you know, again, I’m just this anonymous account and said, hey, I’d love to send you AAA wedding invitation and, and so I gave him the address but he, you know, I still didn’t know my name or who I was or anything.

I had to go on RSVP online and I just, I literally just put in my first name. Mindful, my last name Faith. And and so yeah, I, you know, so, but that, that was just one thing that just kind of said, you

know, you’re probably missing out on some abilities to connect with people. And so, yeah.

Speaker 1

Wow, that’s a fantastic story. Before we jump into you sharing your, a little bit of your orange origin story. You said something. I, I, I’m wondering if you’ll humor me and share a little bit more. You said a minute ago, you decided you would go ahead and take the risk. Can you share a little bit more what you mean by that?

Speaker 2

Yeah. Well, it’s a little complicated but, you know, I started this, this account anonymously. mainly because, well, for two big reasons, one is because I never wanted to make an account about me. I wanted to make it about ideas and a place where people could talk about ideas. I didn’t want it to be, you know, self referential. And then the other reason being that I just, I wanted to be able to post whatever I thought without having to worry about what if so and so reads this some,

somebody in my life, somebody that I know somebody at church, somebody in my neighborhood, somebody in my family. you know, because unfortunately, Mormonism is a surveillance culture. We are surveilling each other all the time. We’re always on the lookout for wolves and sheep clothing or somebody who’s potentially gonna be a danger or whatever.

And we’re also, you know, looking out to see if anybody is straying so we can do what’s best for them and pull them back in line or whatever. So I didn’t want to deal with that. And so I wanted to be able to just express myself, put it out there and not have to worry about that. So, so the other thing is so, and so then as I did that, and got to know so many people like yourself through the account.

The majority of them are women. It’s not something I expected. It just sort of happened. I think maybe more, more women are our Instagram in general, but probably in this more nuanced Mormon space for sure. And I discovered over time the way that people were talking to me that I could tell that they were assuming that I was a woman too. And, I didn’t, you know, I didn’t feel like I needed to correct it.

I didn’t want to say, you know, stop them and say, oh, wait a second. You know, if, if I’m an anonymous account who I am, doesn’t matter if, if you talking to me in this space, if it helps you to open up more to think of me as a woman that’s fine by me. I’m, I it’s a, it’s a, it’s a compliment. And so when I thought about, you know, being more transparent, I’m like, well, this kind of, this kind of sucks because I suspect there’s gonna be some women who were really happy to the things that I was

sharing they really liked. And one big reason why I didn’t want to make this a personal account is there’s already plenty of straight white guys talking about Mormonism out there. We don’t, we, we don’t need another one. And so, you know, I, I just, so I, I was worried about disappointing people about people saying, oh great. So I thought this was this woman was saying these things that are, that are impactful to me.

But no, it’s just another straight white guy. And so so yeah, I worried about that, you know, I didn’t, I didn’t want to disappoint people and I didn’t wanna, I didn’t want people to back away and stop sharing their thoughts, because I’ve, I’ve been so incredibly blessed by that. I, I’ve just learned so much and I didn’t want to mess it up. I liked what I had. I didn’t want to mess it up. So that was the risk.

Speaker 1

I just want to validate everything you’ve said. the, the risk, the fear, the, getting ousted from the tribe, that fear that it’s real and it is many folks lived experience unfortunately. And I just want to validate that. And thank you for stepping into your, your bravery,

Speaker 2

not very long into, me having this account. Unfortunately, I, I did get found out by family and, you know, that did get spread, a fair bit, including to church authorities and everything else eventually led to me getting kicked out of the church. and so that, so I didn’t really have to keep it hidden anymore because that was already the cat was out of the bag.

But, you know, the reality is that, you know, a lot of those people involved in that, I don’t know what they might choose to do if they see that. I, my account is that I’m out there personally. I don’t know because they’ve already demonstrated that they’re willing to do hurtful things. And so, so, yeah, so that’s, I guess that’s, there’s some risk to that.

but again, like I said, I’d rather focus on the positive that, and I’ve been since, you know, beginning to show my face on, on the account. I it’s, it’s been the opposite of what I expected. There are a few people who are a little bit put off or, or whatever, but the vast majority of people have been super encouraging and super supportive. And it, so I was talking with my friend Jeff of Latter day Stone Catcher’s in Instagram account who was anonymous at first and then and, and, and, but,

and he was just talking about, yes, some of those risks are real, but in his experience, he’s just been able to connect so much more with people and just in the few days since I put my face on my account, that’s been the case. I feel like the connection has been even better and now I’m sitting here with you and I’m doing this thing. And so, so I think it’s great. Yeah.

Speaker 1

Well, if I can just be so bold as to add my, you know, I’ve kind of, I feel like I’ve had a front row seat to watching this over the past two years. And I don’t know how to describe to you what I felt when I saw you post, you did an interview with Michelle. I can’t remember the name of her account right now. Yeah. And I it’s like my heart stopped. I, I thought, wow, this is great.

I I’m so I was happy for you. I was proud of you. I was, for me, I, I, I’ve been able to interview Jeff and I recently interviewed J Kirk Richards and yes, you are all straight cisgender, white males. And for me, I’m grateful because you are the ones with the most privilege. Yeah. And you are the ones who are, putting yourselves out there and, being a voice for the marginalized, many different groups of marginalized folks and you don’t have to, you could sit back and be just fine where

you’re at because of the privilege that you do have. And so I am so grateful and it is an honor for me to, to be able to have this conversation with you. And yes, the connections, the more authentic I have been, the connections are just so deep and so so real and meaningful.

Speaker 2

So I, I get that, I, I hear you on that well, and you know, we, we read in the New Testament that anybody who affiliated with Jesus that, that, that the Pharisees made it known to everybody, to anybody who affiliates with Jesus is getting kicked out of the synagogue, which was a big deal because the synagogue is basically your community. It’s where everybody does everything, everything was centered around the synagogue, Their social, everything was centered with that.

And so I, I hear what you’re saying about, you know, giving up privilege and those kind of things. But

to be honest, like, you know, if I live back then and somebody said, well, you’ve got such and such a seat in the synagogue. But if you go follow that Jesus guy then, sorry, you’re out, like, would I ever be the guy to say? Oh, ok. Well, in that case, yes, I’ll keep my seat.

Forget it. Like I’d much rather be out, you know, doing what Jesus is doing. And, I, you know, I, I said that in the post recently that well, it was like the, the one year anniversary of me being kicked out that, you know, that was the choice I was given, you know, you either abandon this whole thing so that you can maintain some place in the church or you’re out. And I mean, to me, it was like the easiest choice in the world. I mean, like, you know, I’m sitting here talking to people like you,

I’m talking to people like Jeff and I, you know, all these amazing people that I’ve come to know and learn from and very just really committed disciples of Christ, just amazing human beings. Why on earth? Like it’s not even a choice like why, why on earth would I ever give up that just to keep my name on some membership role? Yeah, it doesn’t make any sense

…

Speaker 1

that is, that is so meaningful.

Speaker 1Speaker 2

Sorry, I didn’t mean to make it, make it never never apologize.

Speaker 1

That’s, that’s the embodiment of a Christ like life. That’s actually using your God given heart and mind. And so to do what you feel deep inside that divinity with him to follow it and basically cease to rely on external cues. Not that you completely ignore them.

How did you do away with them? But that you take them into account to evaluate them and you also listen to, to your own self. Some people call it the still small voice or the spirit. It’s God the way divinity connects with us. That’s what I believe.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Well, I, I think that, a lot of it comes down to our, you know, we, we believe the first principle of the gospel is faith, right? Faith in what it’s faith in God, faith in Christ. What does that mean? It means that we trust that God, that Christ are the kind of people that they say they are that we believe that Christ is loving Christ is merciful.

Christ wants our happiness and that Christ’s biggest priority. He said it right. When he started his ministry, he said, I’m here for the outcasts. He said it at the very beginning. He didn’t say I’ve come here to validate all the hyper religious people. He said, I came here for the people that have been left behind. So if we truly believe that if we have faith in that, then no matter what anybody says, wearing a suit and tie with a, a certain title.

It doesn’t matter because if we truly believe that Christ is who he says he is, then we’re gonna go where Christ would go. And, not worry about what if, what if, what if am I gonna lose my family forever? Am I gonna miss out on being with God again? You have to stop yourself and say, what kind of God do you believe in? Yeah. What kind of Jesus do you believe in?

Do you really believe in a Jesus that would say you, you tried to advocate for people on the margins but against the directive of your, of your superiors in the church? So sorry, you can’t be with your

family ever again. Do you really believe in a Jesus? That would do that? Really? I don’t think so. So the question is, do you have faith enough to follow where, where Christ’s example leads you regardless of, of what that might entail just today?

Just like an hour ago, Jeff posted something about Lehi leaving Jerusalem with his family and we, we overlook the fact that he was leaving everything. He was leaving his religion, he was leaving the temple, he was leaving priesthood authority, he was leaving the promised land, God’s people, everything behind which is a big deal. He didn’t have the priesthood, they didn’t have, you know, per their religion. You weren’t allowed to worship outside the temple, offer sacrifice

outside the temple, any of that. So he was taking his family away from everything that they had ever believed was important because God told him you’ll be better off. And, and so again, we just need to have that kind of faith that Lehi, that, so that have, that we’ve been taught one thing. But God is telling me something different. And do I have faith or don’t I have faith?

Speaker 1

That’s, that’s such a good point. I have been listening to the Sin of Certainty written by Pete and I’m sure you’ve heard of him? Yeah. Yeah. A familiar. Did I say it wrong?

Speaker 2

What was the last name?

Speaker 1

Ennsp? And I highlighted some, some of his words and what you’re talking about goes right along with his commentary about faith. He said this book is about thinking differently about faith. A faith that is not so much defined by what we believe, but in whom we trust. In fact, in this book, I argue that we have misunderstood faith as a what word rather than a who word as primarily beliefs about rather than primarily as trust in.

Let me say again, that beliefs themselves are not the problem working out what we believe is worthy of serious time and effort in our lives of faith. But our pursuit of having the right beliefs and locking them up in a vault are not the center of faith. Trust in God is when holding to correct thinking becomes the center. We have shrunk faith in God to an intellectual exercise, a human enterprise where differences need to be settled through debate first before faith can get off the

ground that really resonated with me. is something I could completely relate to on my journey. You know, when in the beginning, a lot of the things that I had been taught just didn’t apply to my situation if my kiddo was attracted to someone of who, who was born with the same assigned sex. Well, the guideline, I had been given both as a youth and now, you know, as a parent, the first strength of youth, how did I apply that?

Right. Because it, it, it was, it had heteronormative viewpoints, I guess. And I was wrestling with so many different things that, but what I was experiencing firsthand that in the past I’d only been told about or read about probably mostly told about, never really talked to anyone personally who had identified it in, in in the queer community, right?

The wrestle is real and I can so relate to this, hanging on to the or this wrestle between the belief, the intellectuality of it versus trusting in, in the person. And for me, by extension, that’s also trusting in, in myself and in the divine. I think it’s such an important distinction to make when it comes to faith and to our beliefs as a life coach. That’s something that’s been so helpful for me to, to learn what a belief is that it’s a thought and in the case of the belief, it’s usually

a thought that we’ve thought many times over and over and over again, over time and because it feels true, then we believe it and sometimes we forget that we had the opportunity to choose it in the first place, even if we don’t remember. Right.

Speaker 2

No, faith is a choice. Absolutely.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And now that I’ve kind of collected myself a little bit, I feel strongly that I’m supposed to share this. Hey, but you were talking about how this journey, You had those that turned you in so to speak and took away certain II, I guess we could say rights privileges and you were placed in a position to choose, right? You could have just left it all behind, kind of come back to who or what you used to do, I guess.

And I relate to that because as a, as a mother of a kiddo who identifies as transgender, it’s really i, it’s not within me to, to say yes, I’ll, I’ll be here with you. I’ll walk this path with you. Until we get to the doors of the temple, I can’t do it. And yes, I have a current temple recommend, but it is so painful to use it. And so it it’s been a while and I feel like the work that is done in the temple is, is very important, the work on the dead for our, our deceased ancestors.

And I can hold that in one hand and I can also hold in the other hand. I feel called to work among the living and honestly to keep them here on this, this earth and experience this mortal existence. So thank you for sharing that.

Speaker 2

No, I, I agree with you. I, you know, I, before I was made aware that I was, you know, going to be kicked out of the church. I, I have loved the temple my whole adult life, but like you, as I came to be more aware of all the people who are excluded despite that being wonderful, amazing God, loving people, they’re excluded because of the circumstances of their creation.

They’re excluded because of things, they, they, things they believe. I, yeah, it became much more difficult for me to feel good going there because it, it made me feel like I’m a white person going to a white only country club or something. And so I had decided to not renew my temple recommend again.

Speaker 1Speaker 2

before they, before they basically they made your decision for you.

Speaker 2

Yeah. But and it’s not to shame anybody who goes you know, absolutely not everyone needs to do what’s best for them. But but yeah, iii I feel to me Well, like you said, the, the dead are important. But if we really believe this life, this mortal life is a once in eternity experience that lasts for a very limited time. And the things that we do here and experience here are so critically important to our eternal destiny, then if I have a choice between doing good for someone who’s living

and breathing versus somebody who’s already their, their mortal experience is already over. I feel like I’m gonna err on the side of helping somebody who’s here now in this, in this experience. And, and if I think most of us, if if we were living in a community where there were some really great place that we loved, let’s say for example, that you’re a fan of Disneyland and you go to Disneyland like all the time and you love it.

Disneyland is the best place ever. And let’s imagine that Disney got taken over by some racist company, racist family or something. And they said all of a sudden, whites only at Disneyland, right? They wouldn’t be allowed to do that probably. But let’s imagine. Would you still keep going to Disneyland if you’re white? And it’s a whites only place? I hope that you wouldn’t.

Because you’d be basically making a statement to Disney that this is not OK. And if this is, if you’re gonna exclude my black friends, then you’re excluding me too. And I feel that way about the temple. I, I feel like the wonderful place that I love, but I can’t really fully love it until everyone is welcome there. Who, who wants to be there?

Speaker 1

I feel exactly the same. I, and I have never verbalized this out loud. Well, in a, in a, in a more open forum like this, I have to, a few people very close to me. So I, I, I too do not judge or fault or any anything those who, who do continue to worship there. It’s just I can’t unsee what I now see things that I did not fully see nor understand. And because the temple to me was also such a place of peace and a place where I really truly did feel closer to the divine. How can I not want that for my

Children? Any parent I think would desire there, Desire their family, especially their, their own Children, their offspring to have the same opportunities. And as it is currently, policy wise, doctrine wise, sometimes those kind of overlap as it is currently, that’s just not an option available. And so I forget how you said it a second ago until things evolve. It’s just not a place where you can feel that same piece or that same happiness.

Speaker 2

That really, for me, it’s what people talk about sad heaven about this version of heaven where supposedly it’s heaven. But all these people that you love are supposedly, banished and you can never see them again. You know, like that’s not really a heaven, right?

But it’s kind of Sad Temple. Right? Because you’re going there thinking of all the people that, you know, who, are transgender. So they’re excluded or maybe they have different views about the church that are disapproved and so they’re excluded.

Speaker 1Speaker 2

Maybe, maybe they, they don’t feel that that giving 10% of their income to the church’s stockpile is the best way to use the means God has given them or they genuinely don’t have the means to do so.

Speaker 2

Yeah, they, yeah, they, they feel that they, it’s just too big of a hardship for their family to add to the church’s stockpile. They’re excluded. Even queer, you know, gay people that used to be excluded are now allowed, but they can only do some things there. They can’t do everything there.

Speaker 1Speaker 2

And so it becomes, and only if they fit in a heterosexual presenting lifestyle.

Speaker 2

Yeah, you’re, you’re, it’s a sad temple when there’s all these beautiful people who, who are being excluded. I mean, you have, you have people get their temple access taken away for all kinds of things. that, you know, somebody who has an addiction, they’re working on it. They need God’s help to work on it. But until you conquer it completely, you can’t have access to the temple. It does, it, it’s, it becomes a sadder and a sadder place.

Speaker 1Speaker 2

Or you think about all the people that are excluded, it sends a message that you’re not worth enough to have God’s help when you really need it most.

Speaker 1

Right. Wow, I love these interviews so much. They often take directions that I’m just, I never know where it’s going to go. So, this is, this is great. I, I really want to normalize. This is one of my main goals of this podcast, normalize how different faith journeys are. And that doesn’t make one better than another. It doesn’t make one, the, the good one and another, the bad one or the non prescribed one.

It’s just part of being human and they’re going to be as varied and, and as different as there are a number of humans that, that live, that have lived, that will be born. And I just want to normalize that, that your journey is perfect for you and mine is for me. And

Speaker 2

well, I think that, yeah, agency really is. it’s, it’s a, it’s a core gospel doctrine for a reason. We’re taught that the beginning of our existence was all about agency. And you can’t have true agency unless you have complete freedom to choose anything. If you are limiting somebody’s choices, pressuring them to choose a certain thing over another, that’s not agency.

If you’re restricting the, the options that they have, that’s not agency. And so, we’re not honoring God by restricting someone else’s agency. supposedly, the whole purpose of our being here is to honor agency. So, so we’re, we’re actually dishonoring God by intruding on someone else’s agency. And, we need to be humble enough to not think that we know better than somebody else and to not think that we know what’s best for someone whose life we’ve never lived.

And, to just, you know, the God that Jesus talks about who sends sunshine and rain equally on the, just, and the unjust seems to be a very patient God who, gives us plenty of space to figure stuff out and, we ought to be the same way with each other.

Speaker 1

Yeah, exactly. what I was going to say a minute ago, you know, even though it was unexpected and, and probably not what I would have wanted for my Children, even though they no longer participate, I have chosen to honor that agency and I trust that God is in charge and that it’s the best thing for them at this time because that’s what they’re choosing. They’re, they are using their God given agency and they have their reasons.

Right. I, exactly, like you said, I haven’t lived their life. Right. I’m their parent and I can teach and guide and offer insight or, ideas or thoughts. But at the end of the day, it’s, it’s their journey. And there was some, there is someone greater than me than, than my kids, than all of us who, who’s got this. So I, I absolutely believe that.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean, and we see that all the time with Jesus, you know, the people who were criticizing him were always saying, yeah, but it says right here, it says right here It says right here and that going back to that thing that you’re reading from Pete ends about this intellectual, you know, kind of the finding of, of correctness and Jesus was just like, you know, he, he made it a point.

He, he went out and healed people on the Sabbath on purpose. He could have waited a day or maybe he could have done it the day before he did it on purpose because he was trying to show

them. He said, you know, the Sabbath was meant to be a blessing. It was made to help us, it was made to give us a break, it was made to help us to rejuvenate and all these things.

It wasn’t meant to be a burden. You’re making it a burden by the way, you’re enforcing it and interpreting it. And we can apply the same thing to anything, any religious thing, whether it’s church attendance, whether it’s the temple, whether it’s anything else, it can be. If it’s becoming a burden, then we’re doing it wrong because it was meant to make things better and not worse.

So, if someone, every time they attend church, they feel worse about themselves, then it’s backwards. And for them to step away from the church is exactly the right thing to do until the church figures things out and makes it not painful anymore. And we just saw, we just talked about this example of Lehigh and Soraya leaving their entire faith community, the priesthood, the temple, everything so that they could be closer to God.

And so we just overlook that and we, we should just, the point is not to be faithful to the church. The point is to become the kind of people that God wants us to become because we’ll be happiest when we become that kind of person. And that, and being 100% active in the church are not always the same thing.

Speaker 1

I agree. I totally agree with that. If anything is detrimental to one’s health, right? Physical mental, emotional, spiritual, it, it only makes sense that you take a step back. Right. Absolutely. If, if that’s why why people separate themselves from, from lots of different things. You know, poor, poor eating habits or physical health habits, those kinds of things.

I think we just forget that that applies to the multi facets of health that we have. And sometimes that means spiritual health. And so if you’re not in a safe or healthy place that’s contributing to, to bettering or improving. Then, yeah, it makes sense that try something different or, or pause, regroup.

Speaker 2

listen to your, we can’t understand someone else’s reality. We just can’t, so we have to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know they know what hurts and what doesn’t hurt and they know what feels good, what doesn’t feel good. And, it’s really, really, really egotistical for us to say because I read something in a book or because somebody at a church meeting said this, I know what you should do in your life.

You know, like it, it’s, it, it, we should, yeah, we just, we all just need to remember that. what Jesus said, we’re too blinded by the log stuck in our eye to, to be able to judge anybody, anybody else’s journey. We need to just worry about ourselves. figure out our own path. That’s enough work for any of us to do without trying to, without trying to figure out what someone else should be doing.

Speaker 1

Wow. I really, I, I love this, this conversation. It’s been so organic. There is one, I, I like to email questions in advance. There is one topic I’d like to get your, your insight about, you know, I believe so strongly and cultivating and fostering, fostering open communication. I think that’s essential on a faith journey. And I think I’ve been trying to figure out why am I so emotional in this conversation?

I think it’s because it’s, it’s kind of rare to have a conversation of this depth and openness and vulnerability. I, I do teach sometimes in the women’s meeting on Sundays and I try to lead with it and often the participants in the class will, will follow up. You’ve already shared in the beginning,

you know, some of the things that have happened unfortunately for you on your journey.

But I would love to know your thoughts on creating, well, I, I feel strongly about creating safe spaces, but it was recently pointed out to me by the, the president of the Rainbow Collective, I interviewed Gracie and, and that episode will publish soon. She said, I think that’s the ideal and it’s not necessarily realistic that there’s going to be this, these safe spaces really. We want to have brave Spaces, try to cultivate brave spaces and that, that really sits differently

when you think about that. What would your advice or thoughts be that you could share with our listeners, how you step into Brave Spaces as a means to try to foster open communication. Try to acknowledge questions and doubts whether that’s in a one on one situation or in a group situation, whether it’s in your faith community or not, it doesn’t even have to be in an actual church building. Right. It can be in any location. Really?

Speaker 2

Well, that’s a great question. And I, I love Gracie. I was able to meet her recently and, I was a huge fan as soon as she made her anonymous account and then when she finally came out and showed her face, I was so thrilled, to, to see her and yeah, she’s, she’s a powerhouse. But yeah, first of all, I just wanna recognize again that each of us has our own unique circumstances, our own journey, I think, for example of someone who, and I’m just imagining a hypothetical someone.

But I know this applies to a lot of people. a woman who grew up in the church who was taught her whole life that her God given role in in life was to become a mother and a wife to make a home for her husband and her Children. And she believed that she devoted herself to it. She did a tremendous job at it. But by doing that, also put herself in a pretty vulnerable position and that she and her Children are dependent on her husband’s ability to put a roof over their heads and food on the table and

everything else. And if she happens to, because she was so faithful to the things that she was taught and she did such a good job. She’s married to a man who’s very devoted to the church who does everything by the book and someone like that, being able to bravely speak up in terms of things that she sees that are harmful in the church could put her and her Children at some real risk.

if her husband decides, you know, I didn’t, I didn’t want to be married to a woman who disagrees with the church, and cuts her and her Children off. That’s a big deal. And so I just want to put that out there first and that being brave looks different depending on your circumstances. For me personally, for me personally, you know, I didn’t have that situation.

I certainly believe that one, the main reason some people act surprised by the fact that I was kicked out of the church because of an Instagram account. And I’ll tell you, obviously, that’s gonna vary depending on who your local church authorities are mine or just happened to be more hard nosed. But I was very intentional about something from the beginning about making this account and why I made it anonymous in the beginning.

And I don’t want to say anything negative about anybody else’s approach to trying to make the church better. But let’s imagine that Jesus in his effort to try to teach people love and mercy and compassion, et cetera. Let’s imagine that he tried to do that while also maintaining the good graces of the Pharisees. And so he tried to teach people love and everything else while also being very careful to not offend the Pharisees.

His ministry would have looked very different. And I would say probably much less impactful mu

much less, much, much less transformative. Thank God that Jesus didn’t care about offending the Pharisees even though they held so much power. He had to just say what needed to be said. And that’s one thing I’ve been intentional about, I probably don’t always do it great.

Probably sometimes I could be more tactful. But when there is a, when, when, when there’s a church teaching or a policy that is hurting people, it needs to be called out, tip toeing around it, you know, ignoring the elephant in the room isn’t helping anyone. All it’s doing is furthering the damage. And so there is not a human on this planet whose name and position and reputation is so important that it needs to be guarded and polished at the expense of less powerful people who are

being hurt. So, yes, I have my name called out President Oaks and President Nelson and other people when they have said things that are wrong. And, and that’s why I got kicked out. You’re not allowed to say that you’re allowed to say things like we should all love each other or you’re allowed to say things like, you know, generic things like that.

You’re not allowed to say certain people are wrong, but until you say it, you can’t really change it. And there we don’t talk about this. We like to, we like to write our fairy tale versions of, of history and that includes church history. We like to say that God finally decided that it was time to let black people have full access to all the gospels blessings and a beautiful revelation happened.

And isn’t it wonderful? That’s not what happened? What happened is lots and lots and lots of people spoke up and said this policy is wrong. This doctrine is wrong. It’s hurting people, it’s wrong, it’s wrong, it’s wrong. Those people got kicked out of the church. Those people got disowned by their families. Those people got pushed aside.

Finally, thank God President Kimball listened enough to those voices to change his mind about this doctrine and this precedent and this policy and prayed to ask God if it’s ok if we get rid of them. And God said, of course, it’s ok. That’s the revelation. It would never have happened if people had not said this is wrong. If everybody had just tried to go along and say, well, you know, yeah, God knows best and everything else.

We, we might still have those racist policies in place today. And unfortunately, the people that did speak up, no one knows about them. Nobody, nobody knows about them. All we know is that the prophet got a revelation. Well, in terms of having brave spaces, I hear what Gracie is saying. II, I think I understand what she’s saying. You can’t, you probably can’t be brave and safe at the same time.

And to be brave means that you expose yourself to some danger. Jesus certainly did that Jesus didn’t live a safe life. He lived a brave life. but by doing that, by being a brave person, he created spaces of safety for people around him who were hurting people who need it.

Speaker 1Speaker 2

The most people who had been told over and over again, you’re sinful.

Speaker 2

God is upset with you. You’re unclean, et cetera. Jesus told them that’s not true and he put his hands on them and he healed them and he pulled them close. It took bravery to do that because it made certain people really upset. And obviously, in the end, it, it cost him his life. But in the process, he did so much good for the entire world. And so we just have to ask ourselves to the extent that we’re able based on our individual circumstances.

Am I being brave? Like Jesus was brave? Am I willing to put myself out there? Am I willing to risk upsetting a few people, risk some people not talking to me anymore? et cetera. And the reality is that I found out is that yes, my social circle is much smaller than it was when I was a full-fledged, you know, 100 percenter in the church, but it’s smaller but it’s also bigger in other ways. And, the people that really love you unconditionally are the people that matter most anyway.

They’re not going anywhere. and so, the, all you have to lose by stepping into that bravery is the favor and goodwill of people who probably whose love is, is really not love anyway. it’s more of a conditional approval thing. And so, anyway, that’s a very long and rambling answer to your question. But I think that yeah, that bravery and safety probably are somewhat contradictory.

Speaker 1Speaker 2

But but we can create safety by being brave, right?

Speaker 1

I love how you explain that Christ definitely stepped into brave spaces and, and as such, created safe spaces for those that were marginalized for sure. I think, you know, as you were saying that it occurs to me, I think that’s the true legacy of Christianity. That’s the true legacy, the Christ trail blazed and left for all humanity.

Speaker 1Speaker 2

And those stories are the ones that he was a nonconformist.

Speaker 2

He just was a nonconformist. And if we find ourselves conforming for the most part, then we might need to ask ourselves if we’re, you know, if we could be better disciples, I guess.

Speaker 1

But yeah. Wow. Fantastic. That was, that was a great response. One of the questions I like to, to wrap up with is, and I ask all my guests this, what does it mean to you to live beyond the shadow of doubt?

Speaker 2

Well, yeah, it’s interesting because I, you know, I’ve seen, you know, obviously the title of your podcast number of times. And, but I don’t know that I ever stopped and really thought about it. Obviously, it’s a, it’s a little bit of a twist on what this phrase that we hear people use in testimony, meetings and stuff all the time. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt. Yeah, but I like, you know, beyond the shadow of doubt.

I think of it as you’re not worried about doubt, doubt doesn’t cast a shadow on you because you’re not concerned about having to know everything and be right about everything that it’s OK to be uncertain and it’s OK to be still figuring things out and it’s OK to change your mind. And once you give yourself that freedom, that freedom from this pressure to be right, then you can accomplish a lot more.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And I think you grow a lot more too.

Speaker 2

Oh Absolutely.

Speaker 1Speaker 2

Yeah, of that response.

Speaker 1

So, so much. David, it has been a pleasure. Thank you. So, so, so much for coming. I have to admit, I, I don’t remember when it was, it was in your first year of creating that account. I did have suspicions that you were you identified as male simply because you had shared that you had, I think an article published in the instant at one point.

Speaker 1Speaker 2

And, so I, I was pretty certain that you were most likely, identified as male, but you’re not the only person who said that you’re not the only person who said that, which is, you’re not the only person who has said that, which is really sad.

Speaker 2

Right. That people say, oh, well, if you were quoted in general conference and you’re probably a guy like that’s so bad. It’s just so, it’s such a sad commentary. I mean, I can think of lots of great women who, whose stuff I’ve read in the church magazines, but that’s the impression anyway that, men’s voices are certainly elevated more so. Yeah.

Speaker 1Speaker 2

Anyway, I just think it’s, it’s, it’s sad that that’s, I, I, I’m not going to lie.

Speaker 1

I, I try to quote women as much as I possibly can or those who identify as women as much as I possibly can to, to kind of, to point, you know, to, to, spot like that, that there are some very wise and insightful women out there.

Speaker 2

Well, and their, their perspectives need to be heard for sure.

Speaker 1

Exactly. Yes. Well, I have a few questions that I ask all my guests and these are for fun just, for them to get to know you a little bit better. I’m just looking for 1 to 2 word answers.

Speaker 2

Are you game? Yes. And I have a 10 to get longer answers. So I will be ok.

Speaker 1

It’s totally fine. they’re painless. Tell us your favorite book.

Speaker 2

Oh, gosh. I mean, I, it’s so, it’s so cliche. But if I had to pick one book that’s had the largest impact in my entire life, I would, I would just have to say, the Gospels, which isn’t really a book. It’s part of a book, but The Life of The Life of Jesus for sure. And if you take it away from non-religious books, oh, gosh. And there’s just so many, there’s just so, so, so many, I don’t know that I could put my finger on one non-religious book.

Speaker 1Speaker 2

That is my favorite and there’s just too many gospels is great.

Speaker 2

I can, maybe I could say a book that I’ve read recently that was hugely impactful on me. That’s easier for me. And that was, Just Mercy by Bryan Stevenson. It was, it was hugely impactful. Is that a movie? Yeah, they made a movie out of it.

Speaker 1

I’ve seen it. Yeah, that was really, yeah.

Speaker 2

But, but the book was, I’m sure. So, so, so much more than the movie is great. But the book was just so much more. Yeah.

Speaker 1

that’s great. do you consider yourself an introvert or an extrovert? Both, both? Yeah, I hear that. and who is your favorite artist,

Speaker 2

artist like music or? 00, gosh, my word. Just narrowing it down to one. well, I’m a super big fan of, the Sacred Cubism Instagram account and it’s, it’s, Jorge Coco, his, his, style. Oh, gosh, I, I’m a big fan.

Speaker 1

He has a, display at the Dallas Museum of Biblical Art and I took my kid and we went and saw it’s just amazing. Yeah. Loved it. Yeah. are you a night owl or a morning lark?

Speaker 2

Hm. both again. That’s no problem.

Speaker 1Speaker 2

Yeah, I, hm.

Speaker 1

Awesome. And do you do still, or carbonated water? Are you a diet soda fan?

Speaker 2

Oh, gosh, I’m a, I’m a Coke Zero junkie.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Hey, you’re in good company. And do you have a celebrity crush?

Speaker 2

No, no, no. Iiiii. I don’t understand the whole celebrity thing. Honestly. I, I just don’t get it.

Speaker 1

That’s, that’s a valid answer. And then finally your furthest place that you’ve traveled,

Speaker 2

the furthest from where I live now is, would be pro probably Israel. I’m trying to think, longitude wise Israel or Austria. Not sure which one is further east. probably Israel.

Speaker 1

Yeah, that’s great. That’s on the bucket list. That’s great.

Speaker 2

Or further east. Yeah. And then going, going west, the furthest I’ve been west is Hawaii.

Speaker 1Speaker 2

So wonderful.

Speaker 1

any final thoughts to share or leave with us that have been on your heart that maybe you haven’t. Yeah. Shared.

Speaker 2

No, I think the, the only thing II, I would just say, I, I really, just hats off to you for, putting this kind of content out there. And I guess I would just say if there’s any person out there who happened to, like, listen to this episode of your podcast and possibly something, maybe kind of pricked your heart or resonates with you or something in this episode or any episode.

But, and feel some sort of worry that maybe you’re going down the dark path to destruction or something by allowing yourself to think outside the box and think outside the, the lines that have been given for you. Just remember to ask yourself, what kind of God you believe in. Do you believe in a God who would punish you for allowing yourself to think, allowing yourself to explore? I hope you don’t believe in that kind of God.

I don’t believe that’s the kind of God that Jesus taught us about. And, there’s no harm will come to us. There’s a quote from President Irene’s dad that I’ve always thought about his dad was a famous scientist, who said in this church, you only have to believe what’s true. So find out what’s true. And, there’s no, there’s no danger to anyone and trying to find out for yourself what’s true and what’s not true.

Speaker 1

Wow. That reminds me of a quote. I think it was J Ruben Clark about truth. You know, if any man have truth, it ought to be shared and if not, it should be done away with or, something along those lines, I’ll have to look for it. I’ll put it in the show notes and I will put your Instagram account in the show notes as well for anyone to you. Good about responding to DMS. If anyone has questions or wants to reach out to you directly.

Yeah, for sure. I’m assuming that would be the best way. Yeah. Awesome, David again. Thank you. Thank you for, for what you’re doing as well. You are, you’re a Trailblazer and you are carving out new paths and there are many whose lives are blessed because of it. I appreciate you saying that. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2

Oh, thank you. Ok.