Episode 106: We don’t always know what we think we know, with Heather and Cole Fryar

Meagan- Everybody. Welcome to the beyond the shadow of doubt.

Podcast I’m Megan Skidmore, your host, and I’m thrilled to be with you and share today’s guests with you. I actually have 2 with me.

Heather is the mom to 4 kiddows.

one of whom identifies as LGBT. Q plus. However.

that is not the individual that I will be sharing with us today. You also have a kiddo who

has been diagnosed with a DHD. Cole and Cole is here with us to day. You all are from Shelley, Idaho, and I’m so pleased that you agreed to come on the podcast

and share about your journey with us today. So welcome.

Heather- Yeah, thank you. So I’m heather. And I am married to Jared. He works for the government here in Idaho, and I teach special education, grades K. Through 2.

And then we have Porter, who is

married and has one baby and one on the way.

and then Emmy, who just got married this summer, and she married Izzy, and they live in Portland, Oregon, Sam Samantha. She, Sam is our daughter, who in high school came out

as gay, and she lives in just the next town over from us, and lives with her girlfriend Karen, who we love and like, feels like she’s always kind of been here just part of our family forever. And then calls the baby, and he is finishing high school and managing at

Costa Vita and dating his girlfriend

hell.

and we, if you wanted to start kind of at the thank you for giving us that that background information. When

when Sam was in high school right at the during the pandemic is when Sam came out. And it’s right right. About that same time Cole’s anxiety kicked into Hyper drive like

well, I think, between the pandemic and his sister having to come home from Byu Hawaii, his older sister, because they kind of sent everybody home off the island. He wasn’t

a native there. You had to come home a resident

So they sent all the college kids home. So she had come back home, and she was

kind of going through her own volatile time of have being kicked out of her last year of college, and having to finish that out of home and leaving her friends. And so she was

kind of a

kind of a mess, and then Sam had just come out, maybe like 2 weeks before that, and

we knew Cole was struggling with Adhd and had come talk to his teachers about it, but it was then that his anxiety kicked in.

And like, really, we really started to see, he’d always been kind of an anxious kid. But we really started to see some things we were kind of worried about at that time. That’s also when he discovered music.

So he decided he was gonna teach himself how to play the piano by watching you, too. And he did. And I said, Wait, we’re gonna take piano lessons. If you’re gonna do this right, we’re gonna do it the right way. So he took piano lessons. Reading music was not an option for him. He just

he like really struggles, but if you play him a song, he can sit down and play it on the piano, or if you tell him the song kind of goes like this and give him 3 or 4 notes. He can write you a whole new song with it. So that’s during the pandemic is kind of when he struggles with anxiety and Adc. And then discovered his musical talent also. There was one night, in particular, when

Sam was wanting to go, you know, with the pandemic was so weird because nobody had a bedtime. There was a school so really weird time. We’re all working from home.

going to school, from home. The restaurants were shut down so the kids weren’t were. So Sam wasn’t working at Costa. It was weird, so

she was 100’clock at night, and we were all just sitting in the living room chatting, and Emmy was telling us about her struggles with

college and church and all this stuff she was going through, and Sam was begging to go skateboarding at 100’clock at night, and although she was 16 at the time, that still

didn’t feel safe. So we’re kind of arguing, which was weird cause she’s never argued with us ever. and

I had a cousin who had just died by suicide the week before, like the third on that side of the family. So it was just really traumatic time for all of us.

and Cole came upstairs just sobbing like somebody’s gotta die. He was so worried one another one of his family members. He was little, really like 10. He was a little boy, but he just really kind of.

He was having a hard. hard time.

and I don’t like not blaming that on anybody or what else what was going on in anyone else’s life. It just looked like a culmination of all thosetime.

Meagan- So do you want to kind of tell your experience with Sam coming out? And

Cole- yeah, my! My fears was

different. I feel like, from my parents perspective, and not in like a bad way. I just feel like, like, you know the generation was raised in a certain way that it was more weird and strange for them, and hard to navigate for them and for me. It was a little bit easier to kind of like, oh, okay, like, I know.

5 or 6 people who are Lgbtq like that’s not

it. It’s it’s more of a normal thing nowadays for my generation at least compared to their generation. And so I think more of my fear was just. The suicide rates with that kind of stuff.

and especially in around this area and in the church.

Meagan- So when you said heather that Cole came up and was obviously emotionally distraught. expressing someone’s gonna die. I,

Cole, do you think those were connected? Then some of that your your fears of surrounding the suicide rates?

Cole- Yeah, yeah, for sure I just wasn’t sure what kind of mental state Sam was in, and I know mental state in her position.

So that was just, and then mixed with anxiety, like, of course, the worst thought possible comes to mind, even though it’s probably not true.

Heather- Yeah, his brain always goes to the worst case scenario, which is hard on a kid, right? And when you’re worried about your sister and they have been best friends, so

we have the 2 older ones, and then a good 4 year chunk, and then the 2 younger ones. So it was always Sam and Cole. It was always just them when they were little like

they did everything together, and as the older kids started doing, you know, teenager things, and then and leaving beating out of the house more often, and then, both of them moving out and going to college. It was just the 2 of them at home, so they’d always been

so so close. And really both of them are very empathetic towards people just in general, but really towards each other.

And they’re not that. I mean, they’re not that close in age. They’re 3 years apart, but they’re they’ve always been more like twins, just the way they interacted with each other so. And Sam is like the most gentle soul

that you could ever be around. She just like brings this

calmness into every situation she’s in, and I think that really balance and balances now cause they still. Now they work together, but they balance each other out, so she really like, could calm his anxieties.

And when she was going through this

like coming out to her family, and hadn’t told anybody else ever her what she called, you know she was like my secret. Nobody else knew.

Then she wasn’t the calm presence in that moment. So the fact that she was upset. And. you know, feeling aggravated, I think for him was like Whoa, that’s my!

She’s my steady now. I don’t know what to do with all of my anxiety, because she’s not. She’s not studies, I think, is

kind of. That’s what I observed just from watching them together. But

Meagan- so remind me that there’s 2 2 years difference between the 2 of you

Heather- 3, 3 between 7 call.

Meagan- Yeah, but you’re tight and like

it’s like best friends. So if you’ve heard any of my episodes or any of my listeners, have you know that I am all about normalizing faith journeys, that everybody’s is different and unique

and beautiful. So can you share a little bit about

what navigating your faith was like during this time as well, because most certainly

it affected each of you differently. Cole. You’ve

You’ve mentioned a little bit how. when Sam came out to you. It was I don’t know you. You said a lot of you knew 5 to 6 people already

who identify as Lgbtq plus, and

you were just okay. It was kind of like a piece of information for you to know described more about your your sister and how she experiences life.

But anything you could you want to add to that, or and and heather that you can share about how that was. I mean. get a lot going on. Turn the past from it.

Heather- There’s a lot going on right then, I so we at that time we, Jared and I were both raised in the church and in like really strong Lds homes. Both of our dads. Always in the bishopric. In some capacity moms released any presences releaseity. Oh, wow! You’re gonna have to edit that out, release society presidents or leave it in. It’s fine. His parents actually divorced when he was on his mission.

and things kind of went.

Got a little rocky for him upon coming home, so he’d already kind of like, wait a second.

My parents are sealed.

but now they’re divorced, so are they like now, who am I? Still, he kind of went through this. He did. Yeah. Discovery kind of for himself already after his mission. But we.

as our kids, were growing up, he was always. We always lived in small areas. The church wasn’t ever very big where we lived, so he was always in a branch presidency. We were always in charge.

and

we felt that we were doing what was right for our kids raising them. It was a good, positive environment, right? And when we lived in smaller areas like that, those were your friends. That was your kind of your social group. That’s where you met people. You went to church, and you met other young families, and then you had people wherever you moved. So

that had always been our experience with the church.

When we moved to Idaho it was like somebody dropped us in a foreign country, and we moved back here from Japan.

So Japan’s not the foreign country, as far as the Church was concerned. For us it was I’m in Idaho. It’s like a slap in the face. We had never in our lives experienced a place where there are so many members of the church, the Kids High School, when we moved here in 2,015, was like 99.9 members.

So we weren’t needed in our wards. We were used to moving somewhere and immediately saying.

Oh, you’re active. Okay, you’re in charge. Here’s the keys kind of a thing passing of the baton, but in we move we walked into our ward and Amen, and we knew

E. Immediately. They kind of cycle the same 5 people through the colleen, the leadership positions, and everybody else

kind of just sits back and watches. The ward happened. That was very.

That was hard for us. That was, that was really hard for us. We were used to being in charge, and so

I mean a little kick to the ego probably was probably part of it like, Wait a second, but it’s possible there was a certain amount of connection that came with that when you serve in a certain call and a feeling of belonging, and that, too.

Meagan- Yeah, everybody likes to be needed right?

Heather- And if you don’t feel needed. You don’t feel like you belong, really.

So we had, and our kids noticed it, and they all were like, Wait, I you know, nobody even knows if I’m there so

kind of a feeling, and that was hard for us at first to hear them say things like that, and you also get into the like the old

school kind of ways of the church. When you move to a community where there’s a lot of members, you get so much old tradition and not and I don’t want to disparage anybody. But it was really like

definitely traditions, not how the church was set up, not

not always following the Handbook like, kind of doing things

because they’ve done it that way for so long. Yeah. and that

the kids, when they would come home from Sunday school we would sit down and have to have like a re lesson because some of the stuff information they were getting. We’re like, well, hang on a second. That’s

that doesn’t sound right.

So

I mean, it was yeah. It was hard. So when Sam came out we knew that that was not the word where she would be accepted and loved like, and we were so grateful for the pandemic at that point, because

not for the pandemic, but for the church for being able to be home. That sounded wrong. But we were very thankful that we were at home for church, because we knew she was safe and protected in our home, and that we could still teach her gospel teachings and have her where we could make sure her failings were spared.

But it. I prayed immediately. Right? That’s where you’ve always been taught to go. And I just had the feeling repeatedly. This isn’t your problem. Your job is to love her.

I got her like, stop worrying, which is really hard to do for me, cause I’m a worrier. But

I don’t know if you felt anything.

Cole- Yeah, I was younger, so it wasn’t as much of a deal for me, and I honestly probably didn’t even notice what was going on. I feel like. Honestly, it’s been more recent that I’ve kind of had

I mean.

like. First of all, I’m still an active member of the church, and I still believe the doctrine, and I follow it. But there, there’s just like times where

you know it like

doesn’t coincide with how my sister lives her life, and that kind of

that sucks a little bit.

So that’s just been, I mean, as I’ve gone older kind of stuff that I’ve seen.

And then there’s just there’s there’s small other things that just kind of throw me off a little bit that I kind of. I kind of feel like like you get to a certain point in your life, and you mature at a certain point

to where you kind of start to look back on everything that you’re taught when you’re younger and go. Oh, maybe this wasn’t

what I feel is actually right. Maybe I have my own opinions about something like this, and I don’t just follow this blindly.

but yeah, that’s that’s been mostly my my faith journey so far.

Heather- I think one of the things that, and that will, I hope, and Cole can verify this or not. But one of the things I’ve always tried to teach my kids is your relationship with God is your relationship with God. It’s not my relationship, it’s not dad’s relationship, it’s not grandma’s or grandpa’s or aunts or uncles. It’s yours. So, however, you choose to to like, cultivate that, and nate and nurture it. That’s between you and God.

If you, if your relationship with God is that you don’t go to church on Sunday.

That’s so. That’s you that’s on you. That’s not my responsibility. If your relationship with God is that you want to go every single Sunday. And you wanna do you want to participate in all of it? That’s also on you, right? And when they’re little, yeah, you’re responsible for driving them there or making sure they get to the activity sometime. But our kids, as they’ve gotten older, have really taken responsibility

for that. And I love that about them. I think it’s amazing. I think they’re way more wiser than I was. I was an idiot at 18. I didn’t know that I didn’t. I never. That wasn’t even the thought in my mind that I

was responsible for my own

feelings towards God.

Meagan- So if you would heather you mentioned

that when when Sam came out.

You are, you said you were self-described worrier.

but that you felt you were told

that your job is to love, and that that’s

hard for you. Can you

share a little bit what

that was like when you’re your tendency? Your kind of your

personality is to tend to go to the worrying place, whatever that might be. You know. Versus you.

you were told. Okay, just love, you know, that’s a huge pull to have going on inside of you.

Heather- Well, my worry and II wish everybody could know Sam, but I think everybody probably has a Sam in their life.

Sam has never. I don’t even know if this point she’s 21 I meet. I think maybe she said a square word once. She’s not mean she doesn’t lie if we were to try to gossip in front of her. She shuts it down. She’s

she probably is the most pure soul that

that we know, and I’m not saying not all my kids are amazing and have good hearts. But don’t you think Sam is? She just is? And so for someone to be mean to her would wreck me that and that like I get terri. I just thinking about it. That would devastate.

be her feeling. Any pain in this life just kills me. And I feel that way about my other kids like. But I also they need. You know, they need to grow. They’re having growing experiences for Sam. Like if the Second Coming was today, she’d be the first to be translated like she’s so pure.

And so

I didn’t want her to be hurt in any way, and I knew that if once people started to know that once you started to tell people there were going to be people that said

terrible things about her and to her. And it happened, it happened.

and that was my. Those were my biggest fears for her. So when I prayed my prayer was like, Please protect her, please keep her from

people who are going to harm her, you know.

And anyway, and that’s when I was like, Hey, I got this, and you need to just love her. And I would, when I would train, ask questions about what does this mean for our eternal family cause. That’s right, that’s something you’re caught like. There’s no way she’s going with you.

Well, we’re supposed to go without her like. No, thank you. I don’t choose that. I don’t want to go anywhere without Sam. I can’t even stand. She lives 20 min from me, and I barely can stand to not see her twice a week. Correct. So I mean she’s one of my best friends. So, having the thought of not being with her forever, just like.

Wh what do you do with that? What do you do with that feeling? So that’s what I would pray about that. That’s the answer I would get like you’re not supposed to worry about that. That’s my job to fix those things. And your job is to love your daughter.

and that that makes anything else that happens

to us in regards to church. then that I’ll just hang on to that feeling because

I don’t. Then what people say doesn’t doesn’t really matter, because I know how God feels about her.

So I don’t really care how anybody else feels better. But if they hurt her I’m gonna care. Then we’re gonna have a problem.

Meagan- you know, that’s really sound and loving advice.

both of you have shared

that just because somebody is living in a way that’s different

than what you my wish. That doesn’t preclude you from loving them, and I can tell you both

love unconditionally.

And I love how you shared that you have turned the responsibility over to each of your individual kids.

which is the principle of

a free agency, a free will, that we

believe in in the Lds phase, and lots of conservative faith do actually and how you have felt

my job is just to love.

not to worry

because I know how God feels about Sam. That’s just really beautiful.

You did you did mention? Oh, you’ve questioned before you know what’s gonna happen

to Sam after this life, and I’m sure that’s not the only question that’s come up for you.

As you’ve

navigated this in your family.

Can you share like, what is your process

that you go through when you find something that you maybe hadn’t thought of in the same way before.

and it doesn’t really resonate it or or make sense.

Heather- Well, I heard a quote yesterday, and I’m gonna just slide you up so I can go look at it really quick, because II was listening to a book, and I hurried and made like a

a note of it into my phone because I didn’t want to forget it, and it says, people only see the truth if it’s close enough to their own reality.

So

I think that

I think that my reality has changed, that all of our realities have changed.

and we are more able and readily able to see the truth.

We don’t. We only know what we know right? We don’t.

People people say they know they wanna think they know.

We sat in the Sunday school lesson, and it was about the 3 degrees of glory, and someone was making a list

on the board about who was going. Not names, but the kind of people right the choices that would get you placed.

and I just sat there thinking.

this is ridiculous. Nobody knows. You don’t know

you. You have Scriptures, you’re reading your Scriptures. You’re interpreting those you think you know.

we just we don’t know.

We don’t know. There’s no way to know.

And I think, having

I think, having a strong background in prayer, like just as a child being taught. You know that I can turn deadly, father, when I have questions and need answers.

and I’ve always he’s always talked to me. I think the way I understand kind of like

you’re being dumb. Stop acting like that. That’s not even like a a real thought heather. Stop having that thought. He talks very plainly to me, and that’s how I’ve always received my inspiration.

But that like that thought that that’s not my job to worry about her, and to only love her

was so clear. And it’s been so repeated so many times that I can’t deny that’s how he feels about her or anybody else.

and I think sometimes at church we get people. They place themselves on this pedestal. They’re so

hi that they think their opinion of other people matters to God.

He doesn’t care what if I think so. And so, as a center

right? And we don’t like we don’t. He’s so much bigger and so much more than we know we put him. We put these human

characteristics to God and they that’s I believe that’s

that’s not how it is.

Meagan- That’s that’s really great. Those those examples are are just perfect, and I want to go a little bit deeper with you on on the one that happened in in your Sunday school class. But before I do that.

Cole, I just wanted to give you the opportunity to share. You know how you navigate when something comes up that doesn’t resonate with you, or it’s causing some

confusion or doesn’t make sense, or you don’t understand.

Heather- He text his mom, yeah,

Meagan- kudos to you for building that relationship.

Cole- Put it off a little bit, which is probably not the right way to do it. But

II have a really strong trust in God and Heavenly Father that things are going to go the way that they plan them to go. So

I kind of just like I don’t understand something. Ii really do try to understand it as well as possible, but a lot of times I’ll just say like I might not fully agree with this.

But right now I don’t have like the.

I guess

knowledge, or like energy to look into it, so I will just

let God take care of it.

Which yeah, that’s that’s honestly my way of just navigating things that are hard for me. Yeah.

Meagan- think that’s really wise. I think a lot could benefit from taking a more

hands off approach, allowing God to to steer the ship, so to speak. and I would offer to you that there’s not really a right or wrong way when you say that you’ve put it off. Maybe that’s not the right way, or maybe it’s just a way of navigating something that’s

you’re not sure about in the moment. And honestly, that’s curiosity is a beautiful place.

Curiosity, wonder, exploration being open to what’s next, I think, is a beautiful, beautiful place to come from.

and and then letting God direct, letting God lead

heather. You talked specifically about an experience in in your Sunday class, where they were talking about a a doctrine specific to the Lds faith about the 3 degrees of glory.

and you gave us an insight into your internal dialogue?  I am curious to know.

did you feel comfortable Raising your hand and saying that out loud and then

in general.

Do you feel? How do you feel about acknowledging questions and doubts within your faith community, whether it’s in a church building.

or even, you know one to one going on a walk with a friend or at lunch, or or wherever

Heather- we just kind of have this conversation about seminary, because he texted me

the other day and said, Mom, seminary teacher said this, and so I looked it up, and I found it was a talk from President Nelson from years ago.

The quote was harmful when it because it’s being used in a harmful way.

But in that Sunday school class no, I

I don’t think I would have said anything. Our word is.

it’s pretty big. The class was very full. It was a combined lesson, so it was everybody there. I have in release society

spoken up. I have a list from lift in love on my phone, and I’m like, Oh, wait! Here’s a really good answer. I can say this because I can read it, but I get so emotional that I, when I if I feel mad about something, I just cry. And so

then I it’s hard for me, cause I just start crying. And then people are like, What’s wrong with her. Why, she crying about this, this is silly. So yeah, no, I didn’t say anything. I wish I was brave. I wish I could

so speak up.

Meagan- So this is in no way to, you know.

This is not meant to be a question to self, incriminate or make commentary on what you did in that moment. It’s more about

having this conversation regarding what, what we can do, how we can make our faith communities safer places

to bring up the the hard questions or to to share something, even if

it may be very, very different from somebody else in the class, or maybe lots of others in the class like.

Heather- I wish that was possible in our

and maybe in other places like I don’t know

that I think that would take years of retraining and trying to change people’s minds, and it might, it might

Meagan- so share with me what would be some key components for you

that would

help you feel safe. And then hopefully, those that are listening can take from that and take it into their own

congregations, whether Lds or otherwise.

Heather- I think if we could, as a church, get rid of the notion that

the doubt your doubts before you touch your face. It’s okay to doubt your faith. It’s okay to ask questions and look at Little. You don’t have to

except the gospel as a whole all at once. This is this is according to heather.

only you can. You can take each little piece and inspect it, and decide if you believe in that, or don’t believe in that. And I know that goes against what’s been said before. Like it’s not piecemeal.

That’s not what I think. I think it is piecemeal. I think that you can accept parts of it, and some parts. I don’t know that right now, and I might not ever know that. And that’s okay, because I know that God loves me. I know that Jesus Christ loves me. I know that they want me here on Sunday, so I can feel more readily of their love. And that’s okay for right now, and maybe the other stuff will come later. But if it doesn’t.

that’s okay. That’s kind of the point I’ve gotten to. And II know that I know that people would say that’s wrong. But if we could accept that, everybody where they are, rather than

if they ask a question or make a statement, point out to them how wrong they are, and

shame them, or blame them for not knowing something, or making them feel stupid for not doing something. Not everybody reads their Scriptures for an hour a day.

not everybody, not everybody, even opens their Scriptures every day. But that’s how we treat people at church right like they should. You don’t know this. How do you not know this? Right?

That’s been our. That’s been our experience for sure.

And that’s, I think that’s really harmful and driving people away because people aren’t comfortable

to just have a basic testimony. II asked to be put in as the primary chorister, because I know downstairs in the primary all I have to know is that Jesus loves me, and I can teach the kids that I don’t need to know the other stuff right now.

Meagan- I think this kind of vulnerability and realness and rawness

that you are demonstrating here is what has the power to change the world.

and it takes one story at a time.

one life experience, one meaning, one human in their life experience

at a time to your point.

You mentioned how your husband, when he returned from his mission his parents, marriage had dissolved. I am certain that he whether he intended to, or ever thought that he would.

prior to that. started to look at some of

the Lds beliefs, and even doctrine in a different way, because now some of it

had the potential to be very hurtful.

Heather- It didn’t fit any more,

Meagan- or painful, or yeah,

Heather- it no longer fit

Meagan-  And so I think that’s really fair of you to say. personalize

your testimony. I mean, what greater thing can we do

then? than to take?

Heather- That’s how you know that you really care about something you put in that effort you put in that energy.

you know, and that might be over a period of time.

Meagan- II heard you little bit earlier. I’m tired. I don’t have a lot of energy. II get that.

Heather- It’s it can be hard to be the one bringing up

different viewpoints, especially on a regular basis. I wish we could preach that to the youth, and not feel like we were going to get in trouble for sharing that or that. We’re not allowed to teach them that because don’t. Wouldn’t it be amazing if they knew

if if they knew that right now, it’s okay. If they only

trust that God is real. That’s okay.

That’s okay, like this journey. If if it’s eternal

as we’re being preached.

if it really is eternal, that’s okay that right now, you only believe that God is real.

Meagan- II agree progression is ongoing. And

an infinite.

Heather- Yeah, I think, is it? There’s this like crazy idea that we have to be all knowing by the time you die right like, I gotta hurry up and learn all this stuff before I die. Not a how. Who knows when that will be. When am I gonna go? We don’t know.

But you feel like you have to learn the entire gospel. I was feeling so much pressure like I don’t know enough.

II don’t know how to deal with this situation, because I don’t know enough. I don’t know all the gospel principles and all the facts. And then what I kind of came to the conclusion when God told me, you’re okay.

it’s okay.

Meagan- I love that so much for you.

So so tell me you were born and and raised in Lds. Faith.

how has your faith journey

been different than maybe what you thought it

would be, or might might look like. At this point.

Heather- I think I saw the church through such a narrow lens earlier, like 1 one way, right one way to do everything. and

I think my personal testimony and my personal revelation that I have received. letting me know that

our way might not look like other families in the church. But that’s okay, because it’s God’s way.

There’s no there’s no way that

he did not have in his plan for Sam to meet Taryn and Terrence to be part of our family.

There we were not complete without her

right. She came into our family, and she made our family complete. She was like the Missing link. So there’s no way that wasn’t in. He loves her

as much, or probably more than he loves us some other people because she’s very lovable. She’s a lot like Sam, just a really pure soul, and

it’s kind of integrated into her family like she’s always been there. There’s no way that’s not an eternal family. So

Meagan- yeah, that epitomizes all are alike unto God for me.

Cole- Yeah, yeah,

Meagan- totally epitomizes that

Cole- that all are like under God, gets skipped over so much in the church, and it makes me really frustrated that that gets that’s that’s a huge.

II feel like that’s an integral part of the whole church, and it is not talked about, or said or discussed as much as it should be.

Meagan- Tell me what it means to you, Cole.

Cole- Just it means that we’re all I mean. We’re all the same.

If we preach that he loves everybody, then why are we preaching that

for me, for me being Lgbtq is a part of you that is a part of your personality. It’s the same thing as

I don’t like me making music. It’s the same. It’s the same concept for me. So

if that’s a part of somebody.

and we’re born like that or sorry, not like that sounds weird. We are born being Lgbtq. Then why are why are those people any different from somebody who’s straight?

Why is why is that different in God’s eyes. If you’re born straight, then you are like somebody who was born Lgbtq. Same same thing. So why do they? Why is that? Why is that a sin for them? That’s something that II just have never understood.

Why. Why is that seen as a sin when we say all are like.

Meagan- Thank you for being courageous and real, and sharing your thoughts about that.

I have so much hope in this next generation. Your generation, Cole, and I appreciate so much your

open mindedness, and, and, above all. just the unconditional love that is so apparent in that comes across in your words and in the stories that you’re sharing.

It’s just amazing and beautiful, and I love it so very much.

One of my favorite questions that I like to ask my guests kind of to

to wrap it up, and that is

what does it mean to you to live beyond

the shadow of doubt? I purposely dropped the A in this attempt to look at doubt in a different way, you know, and

peel back that those layers of shame and you know you kind of talked to this a little bit earlier in our in our chat.  How you know. Why? Why not doubt our doubts?

Or why do we need to doubt our doubts, I think, is what you and I and I have asked that, too. I actually created a podcast episode on that

about a year ago. But, anyway, what does it mean in both of you? I’d love to hear from both of you. What does it mean to live beyond the shadow of doubt.

Heather-  I

that’s that’s kind of a difficult question to answer.

But I it’s funny, because in testimony meeting.

when people would say

I know the church is true. Right? When I was a primary president, I said, we’re gonna practice

during our testimonies because that statement drives me nuts.

What about the Church, do you know, is true? You know the building standing here. Everybody can see that everybody that has sight knows that this church building is true. It is standing here.

Let’s talk about what we know about Jesus. What about Jesus, do you know is true? Let’s make. Let’s make that the statement right?

So

I think, when they would say, I know the Church is true beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I think what they were trying to say was I fully and wholeheartedly believe in this entire gospel in its entirety. I accept anything that’s taught to me, and II accept it. I live it, and I expect everybody else to accept it and live it, and I want to show everybody how to accept it and live it. That’s what I when somebody makes that statement. That’s what I feel.

I’ve I like rules. I like to follow rules.

I also don’t like to be told what to do, and then expected to just do it. So if you give me a new concept, I like to take the concept. I wanna look at it. I wanna study it. I wanna pull it apart, put it back together again and see how it fits into my life.

And I think that’s always given me that

like, if somebody. So let’s say a conference talk, and I hear something that II don’t know about that that doesn’t. That feels kind of funny in my gut.

then II love the idea that I can pray about it and say, you know, this was said.

and I understand that it might apply to the majority of human beings.

but I feel like it was really hurtful to some other ones, and I can get my own kind of free, like verification and revelation that that yeah, that that statement could be helpful in these situations. But maybe it’s not for everybody. And I think.

if you can

like, I said earlier. Look at the gospel in chunks. It might make it easier for someone who’s struggling.

But we also had an experience here where my husband did express some questions and some worries. and he was an adjunct professor for Byui he!

He works for the Department of Energy. That’s his full-time job. Luckily, because as soon as he asked questions. Within a week he received notification from Byu I. That they were not renewing his contract. He was fired.

That was a huge blow to us and to to him, you know individually, of course, because he was the one that was fired, and he they won’t tell him why.

He can’t get answers from anybody. There’s kind of this like team, I guess, that looks at your membership and decides if you’re worthy to be a professor or not.

His temple recommend interview. It’s great, it’s current.

But something in his questioning made somebody think that he would

poison the well, so to speak, or you know not. Be sorry.

Meagan- I’m so sorry that happened to your family.

Heather- I was kind of a slap in the face and a realization that in this area. To us, the questions might not be safe. Maybe you’re not okay to ask questions. So

even like a podcast like this, i’m, like, huh, am I gonna get released from my calling? Maybe I don’t know. We’ll find out. I hope not cause I love it.

Meagan- You know what you what you shared about what it means to live beyond the shadow of doubt. I think we are meant to personalize our journeys. I think that’s what

the the definition of personal revelation is all about following our intuition, our heart following that divine guidance within us, whatever you term it, following the spirit.

That’s that’s where the growth for us.

for for me, for you personally, on a very personal level

happens.

Cole- and we can’t experience that

if we don’t

take those steps to seek

out answers to questions,

Cole- you know, asking questions is just the start

asking questions.

Yeah, that’s all that it is. It’s

Meagan- it’s a refining process. It’s it’s a fine tuning process. It’s it. It increases our our depth.

our spiritual depth, our intellectual knowledge, all of those things. And

I think you’re spot on personalizing our journey

is

II believe that

the point. I think I believe that’s what God wants us to do. That’s how we grow. That’s how we progress.

Heather- And I think we’ve gotta get there as a church. People can ask questions. It’s okay. People can have worries. It’s okay. You’re still wanted. We still need you.

I think I think it’s a good II think it’s a really good thing. and the only way.

sorry. Not the only one of the best ways, in my opinion, to

actually get closer to God and build your faith. Ask questions. And I think there’s a there’s a huge stigma around asking questions. That’s kind of like. Oh, no, you don’t question the church. But okay. But then, how am I supposed to learn more like

I in my personal experience. And this is kind of ties into living beyond shadow. Doubt is

or asking questions.

pulls it. Yeah, is that I have to ask questions about the church to actually learn more and build my faith and get closer to God.

Meagan- And historically, that’s what’s made

The church has a body better. It’s addressed things like

discrepancies, or inadequacies or

imbalances regarding

race regarding gender regarding

equal opportunities and things, and and there’s still much to be

to be learned and implemented.

Heather- And so II agree with you, Cole. How else can you learn if you don’t ask questions?

I think we’ve become very content with where the church is now. And there’s kind of just this thing where? Okay, we know everything. I think a lot of people think they know everything, and that the Church has taught them everything, and I don’t think that’s even remotely true. I descriptors teach that it’s not even remotely true that God knows so everything and so much more could even comprehend.

Meagan- Yeah.

I have definitely learned that in my short time on this

great big floating rock there is so much I do not know. And

it’s actually mentally healthy to lean into uncertainty and to allow that and

and invite curiosity.

Yeah, and invite wonder and

and awe and ask questions.

Any final thoughts that you want to share with us, that maybe we didn’t touch on.

Heather-  no. I think.

I hope that your podcast is reaching more than adults. I hope it’s reaching some youth also.

because I just want them to know that it’s okay come with what you have. and then, if you build more, you build more, and if you don’t for years to come, that’s okay, too. We still want you there.

Please don’t. Please don’t think you can’t come because you don’t. I mean, that goes for adults, too. But I think our youth it’s so important for them to know. Just yeah, it is.

Call how you are gay, straight.

Trans, we want you like.

there’s you can sit with us. We want to feed you dinner after you have family.

Meagan- Yeah, I agree. One belief, few beliefs, big belief, little belief. Where wherever you are, in, between whatever

Heather- just come. So I can love on you because my kids are leaving me one at a time. I’m running out of kids. Come, let me be your mom.

Meagan- That is a great final final

love. Note to end on

II do have a few questions that I like to ask, just so our listeners can get to know you on a more personal level. And I’m just really looking for one or 2 word answers. So I’ll ask you both. Okay, so tell us your favorite book.

Heather-  I’m listening to the midnight library right now? Okay.

Meagan- that sounds fun and intriguing. What about you.

Cole- Harry Potter?

Meagan- Oh, yeah, cannot go wrong with that, would you? Would you say that you are an introvert or an extrovert? Okay.

and what about a night owl or a morning lark?

cole- night owl

Heather- morning lark

Meagan- And do you have a favorite artist.

Heather- musical

Heather- Cole Friar. Right there. He’s my favorite.

Meagan- Yeah, you have a little. You have a little bit of a story to share with us. Maybe you can share that with us before we finish.

cole- Yeah. So I’ve been doing music for a while. But recently I’ve been working with label out Nashville, called Song House. They make really cool content, really cool videos. So everybody should go check those out. They’ve got camps that you can go to, which I went to. And those are amazing. And yeah, I have.

Meagan- Yay, that is so exciting, Cole. We will leave links in the show notes so that folks can find you and your new song.

Cole- Yeah, I feel the songs out right now, so

go with into those and then go get ready for new song. Dropping soon. Don’t know when, but

that is exciting.

Meagan- Truly happy for you. Okay, so then, who’s your favorite artist? Or maybe you can share who inspires you as

Cole-  Yeah, I just love his lyrical ability definitely inspired to make me a lot of let me make a lot of music. Didn’t make any sense definitely inspired me to make music. And I’m not making his genre anymore. It’s actually more rock now, but still huge inspiration to me.

Meagan- Love it.

Okay, so tell us who your who is your celebrity? Crush

Heather- Queen Latifah, Queen Latifah.

Yeah, you better. You gotta figure out who he is. Okay.

Meagan- Alright, do you do still, or carbonated water or diet soda.

Both: diet coke!

Meagan- And finally, the furthest place you’ve traveled

Heather- Japan, Japan. Yeah. yeah. We lived there for about 6 years.

Meagan- So all right. Right. You said that. What part?

Heather- Okinawa

Meagan- What a fun adventure! Well, Cole and Heather, thank you so much for joining me to day, if folks had questions for you or wanted to reach out and connect what would be the easiest way for them to do that?

Heather- Feel free to share my email with them. We’re happy to chat with anybody.

Meagan- Yeah, sure, we’ll we’ll leave your email in the show notes, then.

Heather- Yeah, great.

Meagan- awesome.

Thank you so much. I know your your hearts are going to touch many

Both: so much thanks for having us. Yeah.

fryarclan@live.com