Episode 99: Putting the message out there on my own terms through art with J. Kirk Richards part 2

During our third and fourth year of marriage I remember going to a priesthood conference with my father in law and a friend of his, and it was actually the priesthood conference when they announced the well, doesn’t really matter. They announced a new initiative, and after the conference I walked. You know I was walking with my father in law, and his friend and my father in law says so. What do you think? Do you think that’s a good idea. this initiative? And I thought, Well, of course it is. The prophet just announced it. How can you even say that? How can you even ask that question? I? Those were my thoughts at the time, but I actually really appreciated that example. My father in law, who is a very. a person whose faith is very important to him, and also he likes to think and ask questions and come to his own conclusions. And that’s not incongruent with gospel teachings. You know we here in church a lot of times that we should pray and get our own confirmation of something. and for some people that means pray, and you will, it will be confirmed, or else you got the wrong answer. But that’s not what it means for everyone, you know. That’s so important.

Yeah. So I mean, for some of us praying to get a confirmation allows for the possibility that that thing is is not going to be confirmed to us, whether it’s because it’s not a good idea, or we don’t personally need to feel the passion for it, because we, you know, our talents are someplace else within the the gospel context. So so that’s kind of was kind of a starting place for me, and then just observing over the years and studying history how much? The church has changed policies and doctrines which I personally don’t feel like th. There’s much of a distinction there, and you know there’s a quote by Eller Oakes, that kind of backs that up there’s in a church with revelation continuing revelation. There’s not much of a distinction between policy and doctrine. I think that change is just part of it. Change is part of it. And so we it’s helpful to get comfortable with that idea as well. because it’s going to happen. It happened the path the church is different than it was when I was a teenager. There are a lot of different things being taught today. There are there were back then. and so all you know for young people today that are being told that things never change. The you know that that everything that comes down the pipe is directly from God. You know, we’re all filtering it through our own experience, our own place in history. And I can guarantee that in 20 years the church is gonna look a lot different than it does right now. And so people should be prepared for that as well. And so I have become less attached to any specific outcomes for people in my life. You know they may decide that the best thing for them is to no longer participate in a church community, and and and I can absolutely understand and respect that.

MEAGAN- No, I have to agree with you. I didn’t used to fully embrace or understand that idea. But II do know, especially as just I have new understanding revealed to me, and just kind of the blinders have been lifted from before my eyes.

Kirk-: and my hope would be that we can make our communities, including church and other places a place that is inclusive, safe for our loved ones. and that is full of the love of God. for all and so II think it’s worth trying to do that. Some people, you know, decide that they’re it’s they can’t that can’t be their mission, and that’s fine. And and there are moments when I feel that it is partly my mission in their moments when I feel like I it can’t be my mission, and so I kind of in and out of it of that. But I that’s kind of how I think about it. Did that answer your question?

MEAGAN- Yeah, it did. And I just wanted to add, you know I really like how you brought up this this idea of policy and and doctrine, and how you and you, quoted Elder Oakes, and you know. To be honest, that’s always been a little bit cloudy for me. I appreciate your viewpoint. and that change is part of it, and I have felt that.

Kirk- And it is. You can go back and read the history, and you can see where certain things that were seen or understood a certain way. It just isn’t that way in in present day. and we and at the time it was called doctrine, and then the thing happened, and it was called policy, so that might be a pattern that we can see where we assert that something is doctrine with all of our hearts, and and until it ha! It changes, and then we let go of that, and and would say that it was a policy that that changed.

MEAGAN- And and I think if if there’s any resistance or hesitancy that an individual might feel in. and even considering that it’s it’s worth taking a look at. It’s worth examining. Maybe sitting with. I love, how you you brought up a feeling discomfort. It’s a skill that we can cultivate. I believe the same when it comes to to really seeing how things have changed over time that only just coincides with this idea of our our belief in ongoing revelation and restoration of Christ’s Gospel. We’re a living organism. We’ve heard that term used and the definition of living and being an organism, you’re an organism. I’m an organism organism. There is inevitable change that happens as that organism grows and lives and breathes and develops and ages. It’s a natural process, a natural life process.

Kirk-  so I appreciate another thing to consider is the lack of, and you know scriptural scholars will call it univocality. So there are a lot of kind of, you know, Bible churches that believe that the Bible is a single thing with the that has the. You know that it is God’s word, and that God is saying each of those words. but really, when we look at it, there is not one voice. There are many, many voices in the Bible, and that that applies not only to the Bible, but to any religious Scripture or institution that has a lot of people in it, a lot of profits, a lot of apostles that are saying things. If we sit in a A conference weekend for Latter Day Saints, and we hear. you know, 30 speakers, or however many there are going to be messages that are contradictory, the count that you know, that are conflict with each other, and we heard that even just this last time, and that is because, you know, everybody has their own gifts their own talents, their own experience that they are. that the that the they are on their own understanding of the world and of the spiritual experience even. And so I actually think that that we can frame that as a blessing, because we realize, even though there may may be some people who speak against. you know, cafeteria practition, practice, pract practicing of a religion that we would pick and choose. In my, in my opinion, the reality is that we have to pick and choose because the Scriptures can’t they contradict each other? Conference talks contradict each other. So we have to choose.

MEAGAN- And I think we all do. It’s just awareness is is the link. It’s whether or not we’re aware we? We all do. You think about things like everybody’s got a different interpretation of the word of wisdom? And what that really means? There’s certain things that are generally accepted to be a part of that right? I think it’s the awareness piece right?

Kirk- Yeah. So II just want to your listeners here to know that I probably wear the badge of a cafeteria practitioner because I I’m picking and choosing, and I think that that fits into agency right like it does. One of the biggest principles that we believe. This human experience is based on is the ability to choose. And you know, you can, of course, argue that you can’t choose the consequences of your choices, that those consequences will will happen. And I would just say, That’s right, that’s right. I am choosing the parts of the gospel that I’m going to focus on. And for me that is the you know, that is love. Above all. Paul said. I think it was, Paul. All things will fail except charity. And so that is, you know, the piece of the cafeteria that I am embracing the most, and I will live with those consequences

MEAGAN- that resonates. I feel that I probably say I’ve got. If this were the cafeteria of life, I probably got about 3 trays of love right now. That’s I’m I’m dipping heavily into that option as well. That’s really poetic. Thank you for sharing that on that note? As one who openly wears the badge of being a cafeteria Mormon or member of the Lds. Faith. how comfortable, then, is it for you to to talk about where you’re at in your journey. No matter the setting it could be in a church setting. It could be outside somewhere else. But just that idea of being real, and in some cases pretty raw about where you’re at knowing that there’s a good chance that the person sitting across from you may very not well, you know, is not going to be where you’re at.

Kirk- Yeah, I mean, the ironic thing. Is that probably the least comfortable place to talk about. It is church. So I have. I’ve practiced a few phrases that have helped me a little bit. One of them. One of them is like I’ll just practice the starting a a comment with something like another way to look at. This is or I’ve even said in Sunday school. This might seem really controversial. But what if we look at it this way? And but honestly, I these days I don’t. I don’t talk talk a lot in church. What I do is I, when I have a podcast interview, or when I speak at a university, at a church school, or when I post online, or when I’m in conversations? you know, even some of those family conversations can be really hard. So I have to be really careful about how I approach those with kind of you know my family of origin. But I think it helps again to practice practice, and and one of the things that I do is I try to to put the message out there on my own terms, just kind of like an open letter or open post, or a painting. Of course I love doing it with artwork and oftentimes that brings new discussions. Or brings the discussions to me, and it brings has brought me so many beautiful friends, Lgbtq friends and allies over the years that it’s been really big blessing to me. So I think it. You know it is something that we have to consider where are some safe places, and we’re not in safe places. Where are some ways that we can talk about it.

MEAGAN- I agree so much. I love that you said you do it on your own terms. I relate to that a lot. This podcast for me has actually been very healing in my faith journey. being able to have these conversations openly with other individuals who are willing to talk about the hard stuff. and I I take a more. I kind of see. I had a coach that I worked with and use an analogy that has resonated, and I use it for myself. I’m like a lighthouse right. The lighthouse doesn’t stand up and go move around for the ships to help the ships find the shore. The ships come to the lighthouse, so I’m I’m sharing my story. I’m sharing my journey. I’m sharing my truth. What I consider to be my truth. and inviting others to come and share theirs as well. My personality is definitely not one, too. I go and shove anything in anybody’s face or personal space. So yes, your art. A picture. as they say, speaks a thousand words. II think yours, probably an infinite number of words.  I I’m curious to know. How has your faith journey been different, would you say, than what maybe you expected in your youth if at all?

Kirk- Oh, yeah, it’s been very different, I think. you know, probably need a whole other episode to go. Probably. Would you say the main? The main thing is, that’s different. Perhaps you know, I think my family looks a lot different than the church video family that I grew up with, you know, seeing on those videos. And and that’s it. That’s okay like that. They are. They are beautiful. They’re wonderful. They’re making. They’re using their agency in ways that I’m proud of them.

MEAGAN- I agree. Yeah.

Kirk- So I you know I I’m in a mixed faith marriage. At this point I over the years. I my faith, changed a lot deconstructed a lot. II replaced certain things that I held on to with new things that I hold onto and at during that time, you know my wife was very kind of. I would say.What’s a good way to describe it. I think she didn’t ask a lot of questions about things up until our whole world kind of changed during the pandemic. And then she swung right past me and decided that the church was not and organized religion generally is not for her, and so that is dramatic change in our family, and and in some ways it was. It was difficult, but in some ways it also became easier for me to show who I really am in terms of my own faith and how it doesn’t look again like the videos like the church videos do. So, so yeah, in that way, it looks a lot different. I would say that I I believe a lot more in differentiation. Now, in kind of having an adult making decisions like an adult in the face of kind of what the church community asks of you. I believe strongly in that. I really appreciate Chris Kimball’s book. where he focuses on that moving on the inside of the edge. And a lot of that resonates with me. So my family, my, my yeah, my life looks a lot different than I imagined it would.

MEAGAN- so I’m so thank you so much for sharing that piece and I’m wondering if you would be willing to indulge me a little as you were talking. I was thinking, you know, this episode will probably publish close to the holiday season. and you know you’ve you’ve brought up many ways. Your family looks different, and and you’re proud of each of those individuals for the choices that they’re making, th. They’re using their free agency. They are growing in ways that they should, you know, be experienced or growing in their lives. Would you be willing or open to sharing with our listeners what that can look like, particularly in a season such as the holidays coming up Christmas and so on. You know. How do you navigate that When in the past, you know God, higher power has been a central factor to celebrations which usually involve family. Whether that’s your family of birth. your your family, of your faith? Or perhaps you know new faiths as well if others in your family. And not asking you to divulge any of that at all. Just what that celebration acknowledgement can look like. and and how you you navigate make that work.

Kirk- Yeah, I mean I guess I would use the word lucky, maybe use the word lucky, but I feel lucky that my family members are not against the idea of talking about God. so so that you know my situation may be different from other people’s situation in that respect. But I would say, one of the things that we’ve had to do is figure out how we’re going to do family, you know. Teach our family, teach our kids. we’ve done a couple of different things.  one is at times we’ve discussed church. a church teachings directly, with different differing viewpoints. This is what you know. Amy thinks this is what I think. But another thing that we’ve done is, we have used an another kind of family home evening ish re resource that I’ve posted about a few times, which is uplift. kids.org uses a lot of wisdom, traditions, religions, and science to teach specific principles. So that’s been really helpful in our family. I’ve I’ve had to let go of things, you know. I’ve had to let go of specific ideas around Christmas, and I realized that I had to do that even before. A lot of these. a lot of people kind of chose their own faithful ha! Path! In that, you know, I had traditions that I grew up with for Christmas. Amy had traditions that she grew up with for Christmas and some of them just didn’t take. They just realized I don’t want to do that. And they’re already thinking, not want to do, what meant shelf in this family? Yeah. So so I mean, yeah. So like, that’s something that Amy likes to do. And I would not have chosen to do that. So I just you know, II think it’s compromise, and it’s that’s a really good point trying to get make room for each family member and And so that’s kind of how we move forward. And we tried to find some traditions that everybody will want to participate in, because and then there may be some things that we still want to do, but not everybody wants to participate in. And that’s fine. So does that it does.

MEAGAN- I love the focus that you have there on on a bigger picture. right? If if your family, if you were to compare it to that living organism. You were. You are making each part of that organism equally important. Their viewpoints, their thoughts, their their journey, their input and  I can’t think of anything more beautiful. Wow! And respectful and loving. I think a lot of families could experience a new, deeper level of connection and growth by honoring each individual where they’re at a lot of families in this space. And by stay in this space, I mean Lgbtq plus families. Their kids are still in the teenage years and each family is going to interpret that a little differently, as far as do we still make our children do certain things or pull back a little bit on the reins, and allow that discovery, that inquisitiveness invite mystery in. I love your use of the word mystery earlier. and I have taken the viewpoint that I would rather I call it birthing an adult. You. It’s in some in some ways harder than birthing an infant, you. There’s so many moving parts, so many things to consider. and I would just rather them have a soft place to land while they’re still under my roof and allow them that bandwidth to. Well, you know what what I’ve taught you. You know what we feel are good options. I trust you to make you know that choice or that decision, or I trust that you will do what feels best for you at this time, and it can be a really really powerful growing experience. And I think just the release of those rains actually helps the kid to feel. Okay, II do want to go and and check this out. But I won’t go too far whether or not they actually verbalize that. So yes, I mean III

Kirk- that really resonates with me and Amy. I think we’ve parented very much in that way. I don’t know if you know. I think parenting is such an individual thing, too, but I believe in. I believe in differentiation. I’ve learned a lot from Jennifer Finlayson 5. I think that those are really concepts worth learning about, and and considering how you you know, you might apply those to your life and relationships.

MEAGAN- I do, too, and I don’t think it’s something that we were necessarily. at least in my experience, growing up, that that was available to me. I could just keep chatting. I am. This has been just lovely. just so beautiful. I always like to kind of wrap up with this question, and I ask it of each of my guests, and that is what does it mean to you to live beyond the shadow of doubt? I purposely dropped the a right I believe doubt is often cast in a negative light. but I have come to know that’s just not the case.

Kirk- Yeah, I’ve been thinking about the phrase, and of course it could be interpreteda few ways. One way might be that you’re moving through doubt, and that there is life on the other side. I think that one way to interpret it but also for me personally. Sometimes I sometimes I live in the shadow of doubt. like sometime a lot of my life is maybe not deep in the shadow. There are certainly those moments. Maybe I’m near the edge of the shadow but it is. I think it’s healthy to have some skepticism. It’s healthy to have some questions. It’s healthy, too. not. you know. It’s healthy to find to seek and hopefully find some answers to those questions, and I think it’s also helped Healthy to live without the answers to some of those questions. So in some cases, maybe more mentally healthy.Yeah. So I think it’s for me. Personally, I would just say, I think it’s okay to live in the shadow of doubt. II appreciate that. Yeah. Jesus said. I think it’s Jesus. I didn’t look up this scriptural reference, but you know. doubt not, fear not. It was in reference to the uncertainty of his future with his disciples. There! I’ll have to double check that. But II also think that it’s worth considering the context in which he said those words and considering where it might be good to not doubt in our lives.and also consider where it might be. Okay. Again, I think.that that is part of agency. It’s part of growing up.And Jesus did say, say, become like a little child in the people are blessed for kind of living in innocence and also. you know, we learn from the Scriptures that we need to exercise the gifts that were given, that we need to become in many ways adults with those gifts. And so just like in anything else. There are. you know. polarities that exist in the universe, and we have to live with those we have to live with those tensions and we have to both become like children and not doubt as well as grow up and and gain knowledge through experience. So the shadow is there all the time. and and we can move in and out of it as our experience  pulls us through this life.

MEAGAN- Yeah. if I can just add, you know the Scripture reference that you made the doubt, not, fear not. I to pull from what you mentioned at the beginning of our conversation. I think it is important to take into consideration the the context in which the message was given. That’s always an important factor. and one other thought to. You know. I’ve learned that doubt is actually used at times as a noun, and it’s used other times as a verb. as a noun. It’s to be uncertain as a verb, it’s to purposely suspend judgment. So I bring that up in reference to the Scripture. I mean. there could be multiple ways to interpret that. So maybe at 1 point in in your life.  Yeah, just move forward with faith. Just let go of that oops. Sorry. That’s that wanting to be certain and just move, move forward. Not that  I guess. What I’m saying is. I think sometimes people read that, or or hear that verse, doubt not, and perhaps automatically connect a negative to doing that very thing.

Kirk- Existence of faith. And the need for faith implies the that we live right, because we wouldn’t need faith. If there were no shadow of doubt. we would. It would just mostly be knowledge right? And so so these are important forces. I believe in our lives to pressure us to develop.

MEAGAN- I agree, yeah, I so agree with that.

Kirk- So if we never consider doubt or the shadow of doubt. We refused to walk through that, to let it be in our lives, then we are also resisting development or resistance.

MEAGAN- Yes, I agree. It’s that catalyst sometimes that impetus that we need so good, such a great conversation.  I just have a few more questions. All I’m looking for one word answers. This gives our listeners an opportunity to get to know you a little bit better. I didn’t tell you about these questions. but tell us your favorite book?

Kirk- let’s see, I, goodness. Favorite There’s, a long period where I didn’t read a bunch and then I started listening on. audible. And I don’t, you know. Probably I’ll just say that one of my my most recent favorites has been Chris Kimball’s book, living on the inside of the edge, and I don’t think that’ll be my, you know, like my lifetime favorite book. But I think it’s very salient right now.

MEAGAN Awesome. Yeah, agreed. Would you consider yourself an introvert or an extrovert?

Kirk- Oh, I think I’m right in the middle there times when I prefer to be introverted, and there are times when I don’t mind being a little bit extra, II would say, attend a little bit more towards introversion. Sorry these are very bad. One word answers.

MEAGAN- that’s that’s awesome, that’s perfect. The next question is, who is your favorite artist?

Kirk- Well, my favorite painting is a painting of Joan of Arc. by Jules Bastian Lapage! That’s a Bastian Dash, LEPA. GE. And you’ll if you ever go to the met in New York City. You’ll see this painting of Joan of Arc.

MEAGAN- Bastion de la Paz.

Kirk- There. Joules, they had Jules Bastian Lepage. Hey, love the story of John of arc. I will be looking, not up.

MEAGAN- And are you a night owl or a morning lark?

J. Kirk- Definitely night?

MEAGAN- And do you have a celebrity? Crush

J. Kirk- celebrity? Crush? I have probably lots of celebrity crashes. I’m trying to remember their names.If they’re my crest they should be on the tip of my T movies or shows So I really love that actor who plays she’s in the mummy. Do you remember that she’s got dark hair? Yes, a matter of. Dang it. I’m an Emily Blunt fan I am a fan of Kate Winslet. is it, Rachel? There’s a few. Oh, Rachel, yeah, okay.

MEAGAN- awesome. And what about still or carbonated water? Or do you do diet soda?

J. Kirk- II like still water. Sometimes I’ll drink. I always get the same meal at slab pizza, which is chicken cord on blue slice with a lemon pellet. San Pellegrino really bitter soda.

MEAGAN- I had a guest call that angry water the carbonated. When I was in Italy they would serve that, you know. We’d always get served carbonated water  and the furthest place you’ve travelled

J. Kirk- farthest place from here. Yeah, I think it’s still Italy. Even after all these years I’ve traveled a little bit in Europe. West, evidently been to Mexico and Canada, but that’s about it.

MEAGAN- Italy’s a good place to go. I still my bucket list haven’t been there yet. It’s been lots of other places, me, too. We’re we’re headed to Japan next week. Actually,

Kirk- oh, yeah, my brother just went. I’d love to go to Japan.

MEAGAN- So if folks wanted to connect with you or or reach out to you what would be the best way for them to do that?

Kirk- Yeah, that’s a good question. I communicate with most people on Instagram. The problem is, I’ve got a lot of those. Go to the junkfolder or not junk, but like the I mean, that’s a a place to try. But if I don’t respond there, it might be worth just commenting on one of my posts that you left message, because that that would direct me to go to those you know. To that second folder of messages.

MEAGAN- and do you also have a website, JK, kirkrichards.com, okay, I will leave that in the show notes as well. And your website has all of your beautiful artwork. Right?

Kirk- It’s got a lot of it’s always a challenge to update it. So that I know there are a lot of images that are not on there. But there’s definitely a lot of images on there. So go ahead. Yeah, go check it out. If if you don’t see something that you think that I did, you’re probably right. It probably just isn’ton the website. So po folks can make purchases at your website. There is a section of the website that is a store. It’s a shopify store. We have a limited number of images in print. probably, you know, maybe 30 to 40 images.That you can purchase there on the and the web store, and some of those are Rainbow. There’s a section that’s arranged like a rainbow, themed images that includes some greeting cards. You can get some greeting cards there. So yeah, it’s worth browsing if it’s not on their chances are we haven’t made prints of it.

MEAGAN- and I would love for you to share with our listeners. You have been doing this year a daily challenge with a fellow artist. Is that correct? You’re painting a new. Is that you painting a day?

Kirk- Yeah, and posting about it. It’s something that I’ve done. probably for 7 what? 7 this year, 6 or 7 years. As as it gets closer to Christmas, I we. my friend and I, Melissa, Canba Boggs. We each do daily paintings that are smaller paintings that weso right there on Instagram.

MEAGAN- You gotta be fast. I’ve learned that.

Kirk- Well, it’s been a bad week, honestly, in terms of being fast, so they’re supposed to be daily paintings. But the one that I posted yesterday you could probably call a weekly painting because I spent several days trying to get it right. But typically what I’ll do is I’ll spend a few hours getting something ready the day before, and then a few hours finishing it up the day off posting. and then I can’t kind of cycle through like that.

MEAGAN- Amazing. It has been a pleasure to have this conversation with you, to get to know you more about your work and your story and your beautiful family. I just thank you from the bottom of my heart for taking time out of your schedule to be.

Kirk- Thank you, Megan. I really appreciate the opportunity. I hope that I hope that some something that I said may be useful to somebody so hopefully. If you have any, follow up thoughts or questions, you know, like Megan said. See if you can reach out to me on Instagram

MEAGAN- definitely. Thank you so much, Kirk.

Kirk- My pleasure.