Episode 89: I am finally me with Bree Borrowman Part 1

MEAGAN: welcome everyone to another episode of the beyond the shadow of doubt. Podcast I am Megan Skidmore, your host, and I am so thrilled to have my guest Bree barlman here with me to day.

Bree! You are a guest I have wanted to have on for quite some time, and I’m so grateful to you for coming on today. So welcome.

Bree- Well, thanks, Megan, I really appreciate the invite, and I’m happy to be with you and to share stories and events. And yeah, just have a good chat and a visit. And thanks so much for having me on

MEAGAN:  welcome to the podcast today.

Bree- Thanks, Megan, and thanks for having me on. I really appreciate the invite. Look forward to sharing stories and experiences with you. So I’m happy to be here. Thanks for having me 

MEAGAN: absolutely. And this is a special week of the year leading up to an important day. So I’m I’m particularly grateful to have you. This is transgender awareness week every year, every year. The middle of November is transgender awareness week.

and every twentieth of November since 1999 is transgender day of remembrance, and we’ll get to that a little bit later on in the in our chat.  But for now I want my listeners to get to know the firecracker that is bree! If you could only see Bree’s lovely bright red hair! I love it and and feel of her warmth and personality. You would see what I mean when I say firecracker, and I’m not kidding but please just share with everybody all about you. Your your background? I know you have to be high spunk and high energy because you teach Junior high freshmen level kiddos. in art. Yes. anyway, I’ll let you share with everybody.

Bree- Well, thanks, Megan. And yes, I guess Whoa, firecracker, that’s kinda fun in the future. And and yeah, kind of I don’t know. I’ve always. I’ve always kind of had some high energy, but especially since getting rid of shame and guilt that I lived with for so long. I just I don’t know. I just feel so happy anymore. Being able to feel whole and feel like myself.

Rather than carrying around so much heavy weight and a burden and guilt. And so yeah, I’m I guess I’m kind of a firecracker. Well, so a little background.

so I was. I was born Christmas Day. 1957. So my biological birthday, Christmas Day, 1957.

I was born in and grew up in bountiful Utah. So very, very conservative area. Especially back.

you know, sixties and seventies. We knew everybody on the block.

You you knew when a car went up and down the road. You knew who it was. And

yeah, conservative enough that you knew you knew what your neighbors were doing, and you made sure they were doing what they’re supposed to do. Pretty tight knit little community. I remember.

I remember all the stores were always closed on Sunday. It was. It was pretty conservative religious Lds community and that was okay when I was little cause it.

You know, when you’re just out playing with friends. It didn’t really matter so much.

I remember I don’t remember a lot about grade school. but I do remember when we went out for recess I would always either swing on the swings or jump rope with the girls maybe playing the monkey bars. but I don’t think I ever. I’m quite sure I never, ever like played football or baseball, or whatever the boys were playing.

I was always just more comfortable with the girls. II don’t know the boys. The boys always wanted to have a contest. I’m like, what’s the contest? We’re in grade school, and we’re just out kicking them all around. What’s the big deal? So, anyway, I was always just more comfortable.

In collection of girls. I did have some friends that were boys. but I think I probably spent more time with the girls. Junior high.

who, you know, adolescents, that period of life when things are just so wonderful, but not I think I first realized

differences. II started to dislike what I saw in the mirror when I got ready in the morning to go to school . Although the time that I did spend looking in the mirror, what I saw had to be perfect.  junior high and high school, I would spend half an hour on my hair alone. It had to be perfect. It had to be in place, and nobody touched it.

Not you couldn’t. You couldn’t touch my hair during the day, cause it was just perfect or as perfect as I could make it, and that was that was for me. I think my way of being as pretty as I could be at that time in my life.

I remember also in Junior High. II had the opportunity to play a musical instrument. You know we had band in Junior High. and I picked the flute of all things, cause I wanted to play the flute. Well, you know, of course, only girls play the flute so, but I felt more comfortable in that flute section in the band with all the girls than I think anywhere else in Junior High I just I was. I was in my element, playing fluent with all the girls, and I loved it and I still from time to time I’ve met or been in touch with some of the girls from the flute section even today, and it’s just it brings back bond memories. You know, up through high school I dealt with things as best I could

again. I spent so much time getting ready in the morning just to make everything perfect, although again I once once I was done and ready, and things were perfect. I don’t think I looked in the mirror again the rest of the day.

Not that I didn’t. I didn’t think my looks were ugly. It just wasn’t what they were supposed to be. So I didn’t like looking in the mirror and seeing myself

male or masculine. It just it was just off, and I just felt uncomfortable with it, but I didn’t know how to explain it, or what it was. or certainly how to deal with it, and there was no way back in the seventies I was ever gonna tell anybody about it.

So I kind of just kept it to myself. I found some ways to deal with those feelings of just being uncomfortable with my physical self. I developed some pretty good coping skills.

Many lots of hobbies. I had lots of hobbies all the time, and I was always busy doing stuff.

One thing that really helped me a lot was riding bicycle of all things. So you know, all all the boy friends were were in the football and basketball, and whatever else, and you had to be big, and you had to be strong and I wasn’t. I was. I was the smallest kid in school.

so I didn’t have to be big, and I didn’t have to have friends to go ride a bicycle.

and I could go off on the bike, and I could ride. And I could. I could

be at peace with the world. I yeah. And so I rode a lot of bicycle. That was probably one of the best coping skills that I had growing up.

And, interestingly enough, are you use that my whole life.

So in periods of my life, you know, as things changed and I got busy, or things I had a job, or I worked, or whatever

I got busy, and then maybe I didn’t write as much, but I always would always come back to it.

It just seemed like to be the best therapy for me.

you know. Back then, you you you didn’t. You didn’t go to therapy.

You didn’t have a therapist. It was. It was a bad thing to say you were seeing a psychiatrist, you you didn’t admit to that kind of stuff, even if you were. And so I kinda had to find my own therapy and being active with some hobbies, but also riding bicycle, is really helpful for me.

friends growing up some friends that were boys. but again, usually only one or 2 at a time. I think I probably had more friends that were girls. Then I had friends that were boys. And not only not only did I feel more comfortable with them, but I also reflecting back. looking on that II think I was. I think I was a little bit envious and jealous of the girls. And so I think, being around them. help kind of that femininity. Rub off on me a little bit. I just I just needed that contact. Because I just I don’t know I needed that.

MEAGAN: And so your feminine energy connected of envy.

Bree- I wanted to be that, not what I was. And so I yeah, I think that was partly the reason why I felt so comfortable around them.

my association in the church. Pretty normal.

my family? Yes and no.

My mother was probably the most about out of the whole family. My father kinda just well. it’s not bad, so I might as well go, but wasn’t really devout so much. It’s interesting. I have 5 siblings. one brother and 4 sisters, and I don’t really remember my siblings at church. So my family. We grew up in a very religious community, and we I mean. Yes, we went to church, but it just don’t know that we were that committed so anyway, I probably was more so than any of them.

I did the, you know, when went through all the motions 12 years old, a Ronic priesthood, deacon, teacher. priest just like you’re supposed to and I think part of that again. Looking back, I think part of that I like, I said. It’s because I was supposed to.

It was just kind of the expectations put on me to fit into that. So that social mould that was that was so expected I did, and and in such a conservative community. If I had done something different, everybody would have known.

You know this. This is back in the day when you know somebody came home from their mission early, and everybody knew why. Then oh, they’re horrible and wicked, and they did something wrong. And you know, if you didn’t get your Eagle Scout

people wonder what was wrong with. Why, why didn’t why aren’t you an Eagle Scout? And so. you know, I pretty much had to just keep my real feelings at bay, and literally, you know, as we say in the closet. and I just had to learn to deal with it, and luckily II think I dealt with it well enough. all things considered.

So lived in that area my whole life. I’ve been in South Davis County, the bountiful area

my whole life. So and for better or for worse. I think not. Only you know, I think back on that not only my experience dealing with gender incongruent and dysphoria.

but the lack of diversity I just I don’t know. I it’s interesting that I don’t feel like I was ever prejudiced because I never had an experience with anything else.

I didn’t have a chance to develop any prejudices because there weren’t. There was no diversity. There was no opportunity to have a bad experience with anybody or a good one. So that was, I don’t know. I think I think that’s kind of a negative growing up. So yeah.

identify yourself as somebody

different somebody. very much out of the the norm. That was that existed in your community.

Yeah, II and I think that was part of it. Because there was because there was no diversity in the community, it would be, yeah, would be hard to be something that was different. And so, yeah, you II felt I was kind of forced into the social norms.

Yeah,

MEAGAN: so that that takes us to kind of your late teens early twenties, ish? I I don’t know for sure I’m I’m assuming you served an Lds mission, which is what the expectation, I guess would have been at the time.

Bree- Yes, it was  and again Well. you know, back up a little bit. I did have some experiences where I did share some of my feelings with priesthood leadership.

MEAGAN: Oh, you did.

Bree- And like so many people you know. Oh, just be faithful. Read your Scriptures, pray a lot. It’ll be okay. And then you got to missionary age, and it was well, if you go out on a mission and you serve faithfully, you’re gonna be cured.

And so part of it was one the social expectation. I mean every every every active 18 year old male was preparing for a mission, or should be and if you weren’t, they wondered what horrible sin you’d committed, that you couldn’t go not whether you wanted to or not, but also just the thought of well, okay, maybe maybe if I go out and serve for 2 years, this this in congruence and dysphoria will go away.

And so yeah, I went. I loved my mission actually. I had the opportunity to serve in Northern England. Spent most of my time pretty close to Scotland, so there was a lot of that Northern England Scottish influence. Fell in love with the people fell in love with the country.

III think, fabulous. Yeah, I think part of. I think at least half of me was born in England. I just I just yeah loved it. So How to have what I considered a successful mission and mostly because not so much that I came away a different person, or II really strengthen my testimony as much as I just fell in love with the English people and the English culture. And

MEAGAN: yeah, so anyway, you were, you were able to

for lack of a better word contain your or at least hold down, ignore, keep inside those feelings that you’d been feeling all this time.

Bree-Still, yes, because I was so busy. What was really helpful for me was to just be busy as long as my hands and my brain were busy doing something. Then I didn’t have the time to think about the incongruence of the dysphoria.

And so, yeah, that was, that was one of my coping skills. I just would. I just stayed busy all the time. It’s it’s interesting that soon after I came home and got married. my wife Kit always called me the energizer Bunny. I was just go go, go, go, go, go! And little did she know. That’s because I was using that to deal with my incongruence and dysphoria.

I mean, she knows now. But it was like, Go, go, go, go! And that that was probably my best coping mechanism is to just be busy every waking moment.

So yeah, when I was while I was on the mission I could. I could keep it at bay. I could deal with it because, yeah, I was busy all the time.

MEAGAN: So would you say that has has shifted. Now, I mean, we’ll get to your kind of skipping ahead. But that’s really fascinating to me. That that was a coping skill for you cause you were talking about how when I called you a firecracker, you’re like, yeah, cause I’ve shed all the shame and the the weight, and Carrie of caring who?  Inside? Who I really am, I mean, would you say you’ve slowed down a little bit?

Bree- Yes, I have so energetic. And and because, yeah, this is true, I still am. But that’s crazy. True. The dysphoria and the incongruence that I was dealing with whenever that whenever that came to the surface, it brought with it shame and guilt because just even thinking about the fact that my gender was out of sync that there was it brought with a shame.  Oh, no, II no, that’s that. That’s just wrong to even think about that. And so when when that

when that thought or that incongruent when I wasn’t thinking about that, then I didn’t feel the shame or the guilt. It’s one of those things that, you know, when, when your brain is when my brain, anyway, when my brain was kind of a little bit focused on the incongruence and the dysphoria. It felt like. well, I don’t know if it was the social construct, or the church, or what it was. but it I felt it was wrong.

It was like a It was a bad thing for me to think about maybe being female. And so that brought about the shame and guilt. So I just had to keep my brain and my body active all the time to keep that from coming into my head, or then I would deal with shame and guilt.

And now that I know that it’s not wrong. now that I know that it’s not a bad thing. it’s okay that well, and I don’t think about it anymore. I get up in the morning, and I’m myself when I get ready for the day. And I am. I am. This is me that has to be so. I don’t. I don’t have to deal with that shame and guilt anymore. So I don’t have to stay busy. 24 7.

MEAGAN: That’s remarkable. That’s really that’s so beautiful. I love hearing you, the joy in your voice, the the sincerity the the genuineness. I think one thing that

we we could all better be better citizens, be better members of whatever faith community we reside in.  We need more voices, authentic voices.

and yours. II can just tell, this is you. This is this is what brings you joy. This is what brings you

closer to. You know your higher power, to your higher purpose. Capital, P.

And so I appreciate you. You’re sharing this with all of us.

You you served an Lds mission. You’ve already mentioned. You came home and you got married. you were still living life as a a male, presenting as male.

So tell us. share with with those listening. I know you had children. Tell us. Tell us what what happened, what changed, what? What brought you to the point where where you were like? I’ve got to live authentically. I have got to be who II know I am inside.

Bree- Okay, well, thanks for that. And I appreciate your your current compliment. I really do. And and it’s it’s fitting. I do just finally feel so just so great. But

so yes, came home from a mission, and of course, you know, when I left the mission bill you have the interview with the Mission President, and they they give you counsel and advice.

and of course you know, back in the late seventies that counsel and advice was, get married and have a family

cause, because that’s what you need to do. interestingly enough sharing, sharing how I felt again with priesthood leadership. I was told. Well, you just need to find a really good woman and marry her, and she’ll fix you so you shared how you were feeling with your mission president. Okay, I mean. what else? What else was there? Soright? Yeah, you’ll you’ll you’ll wanna be a man if you have a good woman, it’s like, Oh, boy, if I could go back!

But anyway, as it well, and so part of this.  Well, so, moving forward, I, a year after I come, came home II found a good woman.I found the most amazing woman.

and it’s taken me quite a while, I guess, to realize that because, even though I thought I found an amazing woman back then. she didn’t heal me.

I was still dealing with this incongruence and this dysphoria

one as wonderful as she was, and as wonderful as she still is.

because for 50 years of my life. We thought the cure was

to overcome it and be male. and for me that wasn’t the cure.

so I had to take it took me most of my life to figure out what the cure was, anyway. Yes, my most amazing wife, Kit, we’ve been married for 43 years. Congratulations. So got married just a little more than a year after I came home.

But again, right? Oh, getting married. you’re gonna be cured. You’re gonna be healed. You’re you’re gonna be okay.

When I found out that wasn’t the case.

And of course, right then I fell back on these coping skills.

which is when my amazing wife, Kit, started calling me the energizer. Bunny. go, go, go! Go! I just. I was busy all the time.

At one time, Kit said. You know, if you get another hobby, you’re gonna have to give one up.

And I went. No, I can’t. I can’t do that. I mean, I just kind of panic. It’s like I have all these hobbies to keep me busy.

because I knew I knew, without a doubt.

that if anybody ever found out about my true identity, I would lose them. and I had this. I had this preconceived notion

with Kit as well, that if that if Kit knew  really.

How could how could she live with me? If I identified female, she’d leave me

MEAGAN: so. You did not tell her you did not tell her at that time

Bree- I couldn’t tell her, and I know a lot of people. Look at that and say, Oh, you deceived her. You lied to her, and it’s like

I did not intentionally deceive her, and she agrees she didn’t ever come to me and say, Hey, are you transgender? And I said No, but

regardless right. Yes, like you said it was survival.

II hit as much as I could, but

dealing with that in congruence and that dysphoria, it’s it’s impossible to not have those feelings come to the surface every now and then.

And so yeah, I dealt with it as best I could.

One of my hobbies is weird as it can. It might sound was building houses by hand.

So I have. I have literally built 8 homes from the ground up

all by myself.

MEAGAN: Are you kidding me so?

Bree- And now it’s just one thing to keep busy. Oh, my goodness, yeah, it’s like, okay. So yeah, I’ve I built homes just as a hobby.

because it’s something that would keep me busy all the time other than work. I worked a full time job

and had other hobbies, but I also, as a hobby, built houses it would. It would take me quite a while to build a house, but that was okay.

cause it kept me busy every minute of the day, and it kept my mind busy. You know. W. What’s the next thing we’ve got to do.

So yeah, building homes was was another coping mechanism.

So I’ve done it all. It’s kind of fun to go into lows or home depot now and talk to a salesperson and just kinda rattle them a little bit like, how do you know all this like? Well, I don’t know, but I’m too glad I do

so and over the years. Yeah, that was that was something that helped out.

I’m still still stayed active in the church, because that’s what was expected.

you know, I always felt like, if I did anything that was out of the social expectation, somebody would start to question or wonder what was different.

and I always felt like I was looking over my shoulder like is somebody’s somebody’s gonna catch me. Something’s gonna happen. And they’re gonna discover my true identity. And then my whole world is gonna unravel. It’s gonna fall apart, and I’m gonna lose everything. So not only did II live with shame and guilt. I started living with fear.

MEAGAN: You it sounds like very much. You were living your life for others. for others, expectations for social norms constructs whatever you want to call it. And that’s that. That was a long time that you you did that.

Bree- What? Yes, it was what happened.

MEAGAN: tell us about when you decided, I’m gonna start living my life for me.

Bree- Well, and and so that is no small thing. That is not

so. And it’s it’s not just. It’s not just one event.

It’s it’s a journey. and for me. And I think for most people it’s it’s transitioning is not

a one day thing it’s not like, oh, this happened. Okay, I’m gonna be my authentic self. And so it it is a process that you go through. So and I’ll I’ll share that, but I wanna share one little side note where I was

met some met. I had some friends who introduced me to a friend of theirs a new acquaintance. and they said to me, So

so bree! Tell us.

When was it? Or how long? Of how? When, did you? When did you transition?

And I said, Well, when did you? Then they’re like what? And I said, we’re all in a state of transitioning.

Everybody is different today than they were 10 years ago. Wow! That’s so. You’re different than you were when you were a teenager. You’re different than when you were 25.

Everybody transitions in their life.

So it’s not such. It’s it. Life in itself is a journey of transitioning

from one type of individual to I mean, we all change all the time.

MEAGAN: Bree, you are spot on.

Bree- And so you know. And and I just said, You know, well, what do you mean? When did you transition, and they’re like what? And I said, Well, you’re differentnow than you were 10 years ago.

You’re transitioning. Let me kinda laugh. And they and I said, I know I know what you mean. I really do. And I said, Well, so I started this part of my journey.

This part of my transition journey about 4 years ago. and it’s been a 4 year process. and it will continue to be a process. I’m not done transitioning.

I will be different. 5 years from now, or 10 years from now than I am now.

So it’s it’s all part of the same journey. or I look at it as chapters in a book.

I started a new chapter in my book about 4 years ago, and I’m writing this chapter, and there are good chapters, and there are bad chapters in my book.

and some of them you hope you get to the end of the chapter really quickly.

and some of them hope the chapter keeps going for a while. and so, yes, but

that this part of my journey started about 4 years ago. So that means that for about About 30, 35 years of marriage.

and probably about 45 years of my life.

I did just what you said. II did what other people expected of me. II fit the mold, III fit the norm.

I followed social expectations because I was so afraid of anybody ever finding out about my secret self.

And again and again that that led to fear.

So now I’m dealing with shame and guilt and fear that somebody’s gonna find out.

And yo! That thought of losing everything that even that ups the survival. Auntie survival became the ultimate. The problem for me as I mentioned, it’s really hard to deal with

gender and congruence and gender dysphoria, and not have it come to the surface every now and then.

so there would be times that I would be able to be on my own. and I could dress or present a little more feminine.

Ii remember on occasion that I would use some of Kit’s makeup.

and I would play with my makeup a little bit. For a long time in our married life we were pretty close to the same size, and I could fit into her clothes.

and so there were occasions that if I was on my own I would I would just. I just had to have a feeling

of what it was like if I was presenting as what I perceived was female, and I know it’s a huge spectrum, right? We kind of class people. Oh, that’s that’s male, and that’s female, and it’s like, no, it’s not really

so. But but I what I perceived what I would be if I was female. and so

yes, and I know right there I got to the point where there were times that I could travel out of town.

and I could. I could spend some time presenting the way I wanted to dressed the way I wanted to, making a a

partial attempt at my makeup, or whatever and it’s interesting that most most people that I know

well, everybody that I know that deals with gender incongruence and gender dysphoria have had occasions where they have tried to fill that void in their life, that feeling of what it would be like.

even if it’s only for a few minutes, I mean, I know occasions when

by the time I put on some clothes and some makeup and styled my hair a little differently. I might have had an hour or 2 h before I had to take it off, so I didn’t get caught.

But it was worth the hour.

just to feel like myself, even, it was only an hour. So yeah, it’s it’s amazing what I would go through to just

feel myself, even for just a brief

hour, but I did so anyway. And even that’s taking a bit of a risk.

I’m sorry, and even that is taking a bit of a risk, but that’s how meaningful it was to to be able to do that really is. But you know

the the drive, the the incongruence, and the dysphoria is strong enough.

which which is right. It’s when people say, Oh, you know the deal that I do. It’s a choice, and it’s like, No, you don’t understand this drive, the risk that I would take just to have some makeup on for an hour

at the thought of maybe even getting caught. and the risk of getting caught. So yeah, it’s it’s it’s compelling.

So long story short, later years, not too long ago. Now it’s been

what 11 years no  I had occasion to travel out of town and while I was out of town I would take a day or 2, and I would I would present female, I would be my authentic self, and it felt so good. And it felt good enough that II took some pictures.

Well. of course, like you do sometimes those pictures you end up putting on social media. And I did. And right went on, nobody I knew. I mean.

Like, like most, I created a whole new persona new name. new heritage. I was. I was a female that lived in England. Of course I could do the England thing, cause I’d spend a minute lip, spend a mission there. So II knew about the culture. I knew some some of the towns I knew. Anyway.

I put myself on social media as a completely different person.

And that was really helpful. And then so much shame and guilt about the whole thing.

And and it’s what I it’s what I call the the splurge and purge.

So the dysphoria gets so strong that you you get the wig, you get the makeup, you get the clothes you dress up, you present, and then you feel so guilty and so wicked and so horrible that you take it and throw it all away, and bow, never to do it again.

And that was that was where I found myself.